# BELIEVERS: why does God act so circuitously in freeing the Hebrews from Egypt? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 27, 2009, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-does-god-act-so-circuitously-in-freeing-the-hebrews-from-egypt/483289 "2009-01-27T21:41:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Amfet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/49beb7/32.png) [@Amfet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amfet)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2009, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-does-god-act-so-circuitously-in-freeing-the-hebrews-from-egypt/483289/81 "2009-01-30T19:51:26Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > This is entirely correct, but doesn’t explain why modern people \*still \*worship a random dick god, or rather why those people maintain that their random dick god is just, universally loving and so forth. Or how they reconcile the NT god with the OT god. Sounds like somebody’s heart is a little on the hardened side… 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2009, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-does-god-act-so-circuitously-in-freeing-the-hebrews-from-egypt/483289/82 "2009-01-30T20:04:25Z")
> [@Amfet](#): > > Sounds like somebody’s heart is a little on the hardened side… > > 😛 Damn, you think I’m due a Plague ? Crap. I don’t have locust insurance. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2009, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-does-god-act-so-circuitously-in-freeing-the-hebrews-from-egypt/483289/83 "2009-01-30T20:10:22Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Damn, you think I’m due a Plague ? Crap. I don’t have locust insurance. I think I just found a new insurance [del]scam[/del] business, get the Moses costume and practice your “inflicting plagues” speeches. After you go to the door and curse them we’ll conveniently come up an hour later and sell them insurance against the plague. It’s foolproof! ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2009, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-does-god-act-so-circuitously-in-freeing-the-hebrews-from-egypt/483289/84 "2009-01-30T21:45:19Z")
> [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](#): > > I think it’s totally understandable how one human could enslave another. All the instructions for it are right there in the bible. True, but I said enslave AND inflict cruel labor. There are people today who are slaves to others, held in bondage by debt, fear, etc, that bondage holds them in servitude. Jesus teaches us to be kind to them as we too have a master in heaven. > [@](#): > > So to make sure we all have the time line right: > > 1. The Egyptians enslave their neighbors, the Israelites. > 2. God bitch slaps the Egyptians for enslaving the Israelites, pretty much wipes them out. > 3. God tells the Israelites to enslave their neighbors. > 4. Israelites enslave their neighbors. > > Where exactly is the moral high ground supposed to be? I’m confused. The moral relativism displayed here is shocking. Then the Israelites forsake the Lord and the Lord Bitchslaps them pretty much wipes them out, go back into bondage, this pattern repeats many times. The pattern seems to be God frees a oppressed people from bondage, those people get fat and happy and forsake God, God then frees the people they have oppressed. This is in contrast to the system before the flood, where God let the system run till man was just totally wicked. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2009, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-does-god-act-so-circuitously-in-freeing-the-hebrews-from-egypt/483289/85 "2009-01-31T04:43:55Z")
> [@wsbenge](#): > > They get mana, and gripe about not having leeks to eat. [channeling Jackie Mason] They were Jews. They kvetched. (shrug)[/Jackie Mason] It was a story. You wanna keep the kiddies awake to get the message. Do you say, “He Who Must Not Be Named caused Pharaoh to fall asleep and the Israelites slipped away in the night, like a family on the Lower East Side three months behind on their rent?” Or do you spice it up? (Sorry, but Jackie Mason possessed me again. Not that effectively, either. Oy, goyim can’t transmit humor for bupkis.) ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2009, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-does-god-act-so-circuitously-in-freeing-the-hebrews-from-egypt/483289/86 "2009-01-31T16:02:34Z")
**Skald** You’re missing the point that God isn’t like a jail warden punishing people. As **Kanicbird** pointed out the children are bound by the sins of their Fathers because they are born into the results of their Fathers’ choices. Generally this idea that God is a cruel bastard is predicated on the idea that God is cruel for allowing his children the freedom to fuck up. ---
**Author:** ![wsbenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b38774/32.png) [@wsbenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wsbenge)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2009, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-does-god-act-so-circuitously-in-freeing-the-hebrews-from-egypt/483289/87 "2009-01-31T16:47:03Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > **Skald** You’re missing the point that God isn’t like a jail warden punishing people. Are you sure of this? Makes much more sense, if we are a prison planet. Think about it. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2009, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-does-god-act-so-circuitously-in-freeing-the-hebrews-from-egypt/483289/88 "2009-01-31T16:48:23Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > We interrupt the scheduled eyerolls for a nitpick : Nephilim is already a plural. One Nephilim, two Nephilim, the Nephilim in general. Same goes for Anakim, Elohim, Selenim etc… > > Thank you for your attention. Keep on crazin’ 😕 Was this meant for me? I used Nephilim in a manner indicative of plurality. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2009, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-does-god-act-so-circuitously-in-freeing-the-hebrews-from-egypt/483289/89 "2009-01-31T16:53:50Z")
> [@wsbenge](#): > > Are you sure of this? Makes much more sense, if we are a prison planet. Think about it. The way I read it is that the planet is actually paradise and that we cut down the trees and mined the ore to build the bars ourselves. That kind of seems to be the overriding point in Christianity. “You’re under my protection unless you eat from THAT tree.”, They eat from the tree. “ZOMG I’m FUCKING NAKED, THINGS CAN HURT ME!” “Yeah well, you chose to step outside of the bounds of my protection, now you have to live with that!” “You’re a bastard!” “Actually I’m uncreated I don’t have a Mother either.” “What?” “Oh Nevermind, I’ll tell you when you’re older.” ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2009, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-does-god-act-so-circuitously-in-freeing-the-hebrews-from-egypt/483289/90 "2009-01-31T17:12:08Z")
> [@toadspittle](#): > > God apparently felt that a quick “Poof! You’re free!” wouldn’t drive the point home. He knows that his people are dense and prone to forgetting Him, so He wanted to make this a rousing good story, one which includes the long, slow humiliation and torture of His people’s hated oppressors, so that they will remember and tell their children’s children about how badass the Lord really is. I think creating people for the soul purpose of cruelly using them as just an example, never giving them a chance to be better, points out exactly what kind of asshole this “god” is. I could be living to the best of my abilities, and this “god” could give me tons of crap _just_ so that I could serve as some sort of lesson for someone else? Some of us have been picked to be the “Red Shirts”, and we don’t have any choice in the matter? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2009, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-does-god-act-so-circuitously-in-freeing-the-hebrews-from-egypt/483289/91 "2009-01-31T17:38:24Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I think creating people for the soul purpose of cruelly using them as just an example, never giving them a chance to be better, points out exactly what kind of asshole this “god” is. > I could be living to the best of my abilities, and this “god” could give me tons of crap _just_ so that I could serve as some sort of lesson for someone else? Some of us have been picked to be the “Red Shirts”, and we don’t have any choice in the matter? You’re taking free will out of the equation. Saying that the Egyptians had no responsibility in their own situation. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2009, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-does-god-act-so-circuitously-in-freeing-the-hebrews-from-egypt/483289/92 "2009-01-31T17:48:04Z")
The instant that this “god” decided to draw out the punishment for the Egyptians “just to prove a point”, _he_ took free will out the the equation. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2009, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-does-god-act-so-circuitously-in-freeing-the-hebrews-from-egypt/483289/93 "2009-01-31T17:49:42Z")
And will someone _please_ tell me what exactly the responsibilities are for the first born sons of Egypt, again? Besides being “Red Shirts”, that is. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2009, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-does-god-act-so-circuitously-in-freeing-the-hebrews-from-egypt/483289/94 "2009-01-31T19:55:05Z")
How is YHWH smiting the first born sons of Eygpt any different than his smiting of everyone? It’s not like everyone else gets to live forever, we’re all gonna die to. YHWH smites innocent babies all the time, for no reason that we can see. If you believe in YHWH, that is. The real reason innocent babies die of cancer is that there’s no such things as gods. But if we take the existance of gods as a premise, and decide that things that happen here on earth happen because the gods want them to happen, then the smiting of the first born is pretty much just in a day’s work for the gods. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2009, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-does-god-act-so-circuitously-in-freeing-the-hebrews-from-egypt/483289/95 "2009-01-31T21:50:34Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > The instant that this “god” decided to draw out the punishment for the Egyptians “just to prove a point”, _he_ took free will out the the equation. They were given several warnings. Let my people go! -The former President of the NRA > [@](#): > > And will someone please tell me what exactly the responsibilities are for the first born sons of Egypt, again? > Besides being “Red Shirts”, that is. You’re still thinking as an individualist and not a tribalist. Besides, death in and of itself is not a bad thing from a biblical perspective. The punishment wasn’t of the first born it was of their parents. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2009, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-does-god-act-so-circuitously-in-freeing-the-hebrews-from-egypt/483289/96 "2009-01-31T21:51:35Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > How is YHWH smiting the first born sons of Eygpt any different than his smiting of everyone? It’s not like everyone else gets to live forever, we’re all gonna die to. YHWH smites innocent babies all the time, for no reason that we can see. > > If you believe in YHWH, that is. The real reason innocent babies die of cancer is that there’s no such things as gods. But if we take the existance of gods as a premise, and decide that things that happen here on earth happen because the gods want them to happen, then the smiting of the first born is pretty much just in a day’s work for the gods. There’s a valid point here. What does it matter WHEN someone dies? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2009, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-does-god-act-so-circuitously-in-freeing-the-hebrews-from-egypt/483289/97 "2009-01-31T22:46:26Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > 😕 > > Was this meant for me? I used Nephilim in a manner indicative of plurality. No, it was meant for \*\*kanicbird \*\*who wrote about the “Nephilums”. But you’re so vain, you’re so vain you think that snark’s about you 😃 ---
**Author:** ![wsbenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b38774/32.png) [@wsbenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wsbenge)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2009, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-does-god-act-so-circuitously-in-freeing-the-hebrews-from-egypt/483289/98 "2009-02-02T04:29:35Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > The way I read it is that the planet is actually paradise and that we cut down the trees and mined the ore to build the bars ourselves. That kind of seems to be the overriding point in Christianity. > > “You’re under my protection unless you eat from THAT tree.” Knowledge of good and evil, right. They had those trees. Can’t be literal. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2009, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-does-god-act-so-circuitously-in-freeing-the-hebrews-from-egypt/483289/99 "2009-02-02T22:55:54Z")
I’m finding all the posts about why the ancient Israelites told these stories to be very interesting (I’d never heard of henotheism before - thanks), but that’s not the difficult question. The difficult question is why people _now_ can read these stories and not think God is a psychopath. Surely some of them have done more thinking than ‘he works in mysterious ways’? At least kanicbird is explaining his/her own reasoning behind these inconsistencies rather than just shrugging and dismissing them. > [@mswas](#): > > They were given several warnings. And after each warning, Pharoah - the only one who had the power to do anything about it - decided to let the Hebrews go, only to have his heart hardened so that he didn’t let the Hebrews go, leading to another warning. > [@](#): > > You’re still thinking as an individualist and not a tribalist. Besides, death in and of itself is not a bad thing from a biblical perspective. The punishment wasn’t of the first born it was of their parents. _And_ of the first born. ---
**Author:** ![stucky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@stucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stucky)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 9:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-does-god-act-so-circuitously-in-freeing-the-hebrews-from-egypt/483289/100 "2009-02-03T09:51:36Z")
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