# Believers: Why doesn't God save martyrs from torture and death? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 21, 2009, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853 "2009-04-21T15:16:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/21 "2009-04-21T18:22:49Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > And I’m sure the citizens of Gomorrah would’ve appreciated that. Oh, I don’t know. I can make a case for destroying Sodom OR Gomorrah. Just not both. Whichever town remained would have been incredibly anxious to reconcile with the Deity, but the lot of them got less consideration than the least of the Ninevites. ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/22 "2009-04-21T18:32:52Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > When most people are presented with strong evidence for something, they will accept that the something is true. That is a type of coercion–the evidence convinces them of something. > > An example. There is strong evidence of gravity. Things fall down. You can watch the motion of satellites around the earth, and the planets around the sun. Is there a free choice to accept or not the existence of gravity? > > The lack of evidence for God allows the choice to believe or not to be completely free. Um, huh? Of course there’s a choice to accept the existence of gravity. You can choose to believe the evidence right in front of you, or close your eyes and put your hands over your ears and go ‘LALALALALA I dont believe in gravity!’ and then step off a cliff. If 1+1=2, why would you need freedom to believe that 1+1 might equal 3? Have you had your freedom to think this taken away? Or are you simply using evidence given to you to make a decision about reality? The idea that evidence takes away your freedom to choose doesn’t make any sense to me. Why would you _not_ want all the information you can get before you make a decision that’s going to affect you, as believed, for eternity? Why would making this decision in total ignorance be preferable to making it in full confidence with all relevant info? ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/23 "2009-04-21T18:55:17Z")
> [@hotflungwok](#): > > Um, huh? Of course there’s a choice to accept the existence of gravity. You can choose to believe the evidence right in front of you, or close your eyes and put your hands over your ears and go ‘LALALALALA I dont believe in gravity!’ and then step off a cliff. You can choose to ignore evidence, but do you really believe that evidence does not affect your decision? Evidence inclines people to believe what it supports. Stronger evidence makes certain choices more difficult. > [@](#): > > The idea that evidence takes away your freedom to choose doesn’t make any sense to me. Why would you _not_ want all the information you can get before you make a decision that’s going to affect you, as believed, for eternity? Why would making this decision in total ignorance be preferable to making it in full confidence with all relevant info? And here you say you want more evidence. Why, if it does not affect the choices you make? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/24 "2009-04-21T18:55:40Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > The lack of evidence for God allows the choice to believe or not to be completely free. Which makes it more virtuous how? I never understood this. Why is it supposed to be wonderful to believe something without evidence? Your free will defense to the POE doesn’t work, by the way. Leaving aside the _per se_ logical problems of libertarian free will as a concept, God can still decide to only create people who he knows will freely choose good. Beside, that defense doesn’t work for humans, does it? If you see somebody about to throw a baby off a cliff, and you have the power to stop them, do you just decide, “well, that’s his free will, I can’t intervene,” or do you stop him? If you would stop him, then isn’t God at least as good as you are? If it’s evil for humans to allow evil, then it’s evil for God. What is God’s end goal with this “free will” experiment anyway? what is he trying to accomplish? ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/25 "2009-04-21T19:13:56Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > You can choose to ignore evidence, but do you really believe that evidence does not affect your decision? Evidence inclines people to believe what it supports. Of course it does, that’s part of the definition of evidence. You haven’t shown why this is bad. You originally made it sound like evidence was taking your freedom of choice away, rather than providing the necessary information to make a choice. It sounds like you’re arguing that making decisions in complete ignorance is preferable to making well informed decisions because you’re more free that way. > [@](#): > > Stronger evidence makes certain choices more difficult. No, stronger evidence makes certain choices _easier_ because the evidence shows you the correct choice. > [@](#): > > And here you say you want more evidence. Why, if it does not affect the choices you make? Of course evidence affects the choices you make, by giving you a reason to make one choice over another. With no evidence one way or another, what do you use to make a choice? If you have no evidence that god exists, why would you choose to believe that god exists? ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/26 "2009-04-21T19:26:26Z")
**Skald** , if this is going off-topic, say so and I’ll not continue the hijacks. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Which makes it more virtuous how? I never understood this. Why is it supposed to be wonderful to believe something without evidence? Me neither, which is why I don’t believe that. > [@](#): > > Your free will defense to the POE doesn’t work, by the way. Leaving aside the _per se_ logical problems of libertarian free will as a concept, God can still decide to only create people who he knows will freely choose good. “decide to only create people who he knows will freely choose good” seems to have logical problems. > [@](#): > > If it’s evil for humans to allow evil, then it’s evil for God. Why is that true? Why should there be any equivalency between humans and God? > [@](#): > > What is God’s end goal with this “free will” experiment anyway? what is he trying to accomplish? Good questions. I don’t know the answers. > [@hotflungwok](#): > > Of course it does, that’s part of the definition of evidence. You haven’t shown why this is bad. You originally made it sound like evidence was taking your freedom of choice away, rather than providing the necessary information to make a choice. It sounds like you’re arguing that making decisions in complete ignorance is preferable to making well informed decisions because you’re more free that way. So you accept that evidence affects choices. I’m not claiming that making a choice with or without evidence is either good or bad. Please read what I write more carefully. > [@](#): > > No, stronger evidence makes certain choices _easier_ because the evidence shows you the correct choice. You’re agreeing with me. Some choices being more difficult makes other choices easier. > [@](#): > > With no evidence one way or another, what do you use to make a choice? If you have no evidence that god exists, why would you choose to believe that god exists? That’s exactly what makes it a free choice. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/27 "2009-04-21T19:29:52Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > **Skald** , if this is going off-topic, say so and I’ll not continue the hijacks. It’s all right by me. Y’all are pretty much arguing about [theodicy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodicy) and faith at this point, and my original quesiton is merely a special example of the problem of evil. It’s not like you’re arguing about transubstantiation. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/28 "2009-04-21T19:34:08Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > What is God’s end goal with this “free will” experiment anyway? what is he trying to accomplish? Well, one could argue that having humans without free will makes the Earth nothing more than God’s giant doll house, with Him positioning us like a never ending stop motion movie. Sure, there would be no evil, but there would be no good, no neutral, and nothing about the entire situation that is worthwhile. If we knew that God was there to prevent evil from happening, we wouldn’t bother stopping the guy with the baby. We might not even consider our own morality, knowing that God would force us to do the right thing. Or, we would be so frightened of angering God as to strip ourselves of anything that amounts to free will, going right back to God’s doll house. I have pet cats (way too many pet cats, but that’s another thread) and they do things that annoy me at times. I’m not interested in lobotomizing them, or replacing them with poseable stuffed cats, because their individual personalities, flaws and all, are what make them worthwhile pets. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/29 "2009-04-21T19:41:10Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > That’d be my answer. In fact, my answer to any variant of “Why does God let bad things happen to good people?” is that Jesus never promises anyone a rose garden. He instead makes note that life on earth is typically (at times) painful, wretched and generally unpleasant. The goal is supposed to be what comes after. Why not just skip right to what comes after? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/30 "2009-04-21T19:43:09Z")
> [@](#): > > “decide to only create people who he knows will freely choose good” seems to have logical problems. Not at all, if God is omniscient. ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/31 "2009-04-21T19:50:50Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > That’s exactly what makes it a free choice. No, that’s what makes it an ignorant choice. A free choice is when you’re allowed to choose without constraint. Evidence is not a constraint, you’re free to ignore it, interpret it, etc. Evidence does not remove freedom of choice, it merely gives you a reason to choose one over another. It influences a choice, it most certainly does not force one. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/32 "2009-04-21T20:10:36Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > What is God’s end goal with this “free will” experiment anyway? what is he trying to accomplish? According to _Preacher_, God was feeling unbearably lonely in the empty void, and had a desperate need to fill his loneliness/emptiness with the love of others. A cosmic attention whore, if you will. But the angels fawning over him didn’t do the trick, because like any dependant person will tell you, being loved isn’t enough : you have to be _preferred_. Over and over and over\*. Hence, the endless testing. Of course, it’s just a comic book. But I like this image of God nonetheless. \*Can you tell I’m speaking from experience ? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/33 "2009-04-21T20:14:14Z")
> [@hotflungwok](#): > > Evidence is not a constraint, you’re free to ignore it, interpret it, etc. Do you feel free to ignore evidence? > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > [@Pleonast](#): > > > > “decide to only create people who he knows will freely choose good” seems to have logical problems. > > Not at all, if God is omniscient. Can you explain further? ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/34 "2009-04-21T20:46:51Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > Do you feel free to ignore evidence? Yes, of course. Why wouldn’t I? ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/35 "2009-04-21T21:14:20Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Why not just skip right to what comes after? Well, _you’re_ welcome to… Not you personally. I mean, you ARE, but I’m not suggesting anything. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/36 "2009-04-21T21:49:53Z")
The One True Faith was discovered by a small village on the Nile around 4500 BC. Unfortunately they were wiped out by a disgruntled Pharaoh, and everyone since then has believed in falsehoods. You wouldn’t expect God to save a teacher of falsehoods, would you? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/37 "2009-04-21T21:57:27Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > It’s more that I don’t want to start a “religious people are evil and/or stupid!” thread, the thread title was practically the **Der Trihs** signal. Actually, I usually don’t comment in threads that ask questions of believers, because I’m not one. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/38 "2009-04-21T22:10:19Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Actually, I usually don’t comment in threads that ask questions of believers, because I’m not one. I know. I phraed the thread title so as to avoid a believer-unbeliever war. And I’ll be tesseracting you a cream-cheese bagel to make up for using your name in vain. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/39 "2009-04-21T22:28:31Z")
> [@hotflungwok](#): > > No, that’s what makes it an ignorant choice. A free choice is when you’re allowed to choose without constraint. Evidence is not a constraint, you’re free to ignore it, interpret it, etc. Evidence does not remove freedom of choice, it merely gives you a reason to choose one over another. It influences a choice, it most certainly does not force one. No no no, this is the special definition of “free”. You know, the same one that’s used in “free will”. It means “entirely unconstrained, undirected, uncompelled, and unfounded in any prior knowledge or fact. Kind of like complete randomity, but subtly different on the issue of spelling.” Don’t debate whether it’s a free choice. Ask instead, why in the seventeen hells and four hecks would anybody _want_ to make a free choice? And how can you listen to church people and make a free choice? They’re arguing (well, asserting) their position at you. To really make a free choice, you need to be completely free of all information whatsoever - probably to the extent of being unable to articulate the question due to a lack of knowledge about the words and concepts involved. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/40 "2009-04-21T22:52:52Z")
> [@](#): > > Oh, I don’t know. I can make a case for destroying Sodom OR Gomorrah. Just not both. Whichever town remained would have been incredibly anxious to reconcile with the Deity, but the lot of them got less consideration than the least of the Ninevites. No, the Lot of them got plenty of consideration. It was just everyone else that got the shaft (or the pillar, as the case may be). Bad jokes aside, and back to the OP: God _does_ save martyrs from torture and death. Ste. Joan isn’t being tortured right now, is she? In fact, she’s doing just fine right now in Heaven. God not only saved her, He brought her to the best place possible. Compared to the eternal joys of Heaven, even the worst of Earthly tortures are irrelevant. Which is not, of course, to say that it’s OK for us to torture, since unlike God, all we have to compare to is Earthly things. So we should still strive to make Earth as good as possible, by Earthly standards. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853.md?page=3)