# Believers: Why doesn't God save martyrs from torture and death? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 21, 2009, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853 "2009-04-21T15:16:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/41 "2009-04-21T23:06:13Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > No, the Lot of them got plenty of consideration. It was just everyone else that got the shaft (or the pillar, as the case may be). > > Bad jokes aside, and back to the OP: God _does_ save martyrs from torture and death. Ste. Joan isn’t being tortured right now, is she? In fact, she’s doing just fine right now in Heaven. God not only saved her, He brought her to the best place possible. Compared to the eternal joys of Heaven, even the worst of Earthly tortures are irrelevant. > > Which is not, of course, to say that it’s OK for us to torture, since unlike God, all we have to compare to is Earthly things. So we should still strive to make Earth as good as possible, by Earthly standards. So you’re arguing that he does save people, but just has a slow reaction time? So a few inconsequential hours (days, weeks) of torture might slip through before he gets them out, but no biggie? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/42 "2009-04-21T23:19:06Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > Can you explain further? An omniscient God knows everything you’re going to do before you’re born. An omniscient God knows what Hitler will do before he’s born, and therfore has the option of simply not creating Hitler. He can create only people who will freely choose to be good. Please understand that I’m not saying he has to engineer them to do only good or prevent them from being bad, just that he can use his omniscience to know which people will choose _on their own_ to be good. They still have free will, and no one has to get cooked in an oven. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/43 "2009-04-21T23:24:38Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > No, the Lot of them got plenty of consideration. It was just everyone else that got the shaft (or the pillar, as the case may be). > > Bad jokes aside, and back to the OP: God _does_ save martyrs from torture and death. Ste. Joan isn’t being tortured right now, is she? In fact, she’s doing just fine right now in Heaven. God not only saved her, He brought her to the best place possible. Compared to the eternal joys of Heaven, even the worst of Earthly tortures are irrelevant. > > Which is not, of course, to say that it’s OK for us to torture, since unlike God, all we have to compare to is Earthly things. So we should still strive to make Earth as good as possible, by Earthly standards. Speaking of Jeanne d’Arc, she actually thought she was going to be rescued from the stake by the angels that talked to her. She said the angels had _promised_ her they would save her, and she thought the angels never lied. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2009, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/44 "2009-04-22T03:07:11Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > No no no, this is the special definition of “free”. You know, the same one that’s used in “free will”. It means “entirely unconstrained, undirected, uncompelled, and unfounded in any prior knowledge or fact. Kind of like complete randomity, but subtly different on the issue of spelling.” > > Don’t debate whether it’s a free choice. Ask instead, why in the seventeen hells and four hecks would anybody _want_ to make a free choice? > > And how can you listen to church people and make a free choice? They’re arguing (well, asserting) their position at you. To really make a free choice, you need to be completely free of all information whatsoever - probably to the extent of being unable to articulate the question due to a lack of knowledge about the words and concepts involved. I think you make a free choice based on whatever information you have, true or untrue, limited or complete {usually limited} and move on letting experience steer the next choice. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2009, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/45 "2009-04-22T03:10:19Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Speaking of Jeanne d’Arc, she actually thought she was going to be rescued from the stake by the angels that talked to her. She said the angels had _promised_ her they would save her, and she thought the angels never lied. Later the Angels explained that they had saved her from the \*\*lake \*\* of fire, not the **stake** of fire and they and Joan all had a good chuckle over that. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2009, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/46 "2009-04-22T04:27:35Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I expect Joan, while being burned alive, might have appreciated, at the very least, some miraculous anesthetic. Of course, you have no evidence that she didn’t receive it… ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2009, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/47 "2009-04-22T04:33:21Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Of course, it also leaves me free to believe in Thor, Zeus, Indra, Aslan,and Iorek Byrnison. And that is _exactly_ the point! _Please_ believe me when I say that I mean this in all sincerity and unsnarkiness: Without regard to whether one is believer or not (although being a believer certainly facilitates _some_ understanding…) comments like this (and it is an _ **extremely** _ common one) show that many people have no clue about what a belief in God-----principally faith----means at all. ---
**Author:** ![Lacunae\_Quell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lacunae\_Quell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lacunae_Quell)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2009, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/48 "2009-04-22T06:59:22Z")
Matthew 5:10–“Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven”. God doesn’t save martyrs from their death because those people are willing to die defending God’s righteousness. It’s more or less the heart’s desire of a martyr to be put to death for their beliefs, and sometimes God does intervene and rescues those being persecuted, as the case was with Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego in the furnace and also with Daniel in the lion’s den. …also… when an individual dies it is the end of their journey through life. Think of it this way… God sent Joan of Arc (or whatever martyr) to fulfill a certain task, and once that task was/is completed, that person has no other purpose to live (and finds peace and rest from their journey in the afterlife). ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2009, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/49 "2009-04-22T18:55:57Z")
You shoudl also note that for once I don’t think I disagree with Diogenes, though we have very differnt points of view on the matter. Dio says that God could just not make the evil people. Well, yeah. But he loves them, too. I know that’s very hard for us to understand. But God loves even people like Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, of Gengis Khan. Or Satan, for that matter. He may send them out and away from himself inifinitely because they can no longer accept or tolerate any goodness anymore, but it was always and always remains their choice. Now, I disagree that God must or needs the martyr to die, or that he doesn’t care about the martyr’s life. He certainly knows confusion over death and the fear of the unknown (Eloi, Eloi, Lama Sabacthani\*). He (despite being the most pratcical of beings) is no fan of utilitarianism. Nobody’s life is used merely as the fuel for other purposes. Yet we _do_ have a purpose, and in fact many purposes. We are those who have rejected God in some way; although this is partly because we handed corrupted organisms. We may be called upon to reject our life in favor of a better purpose. Most people are not. \*Here, we see even Jesus confused and concerned. He’s hurting like, well, like a guy who got nailed to a wooden cross and stuck upright. Her clearly doesn’t quite know what’s happening or going on. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2009, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/50 "2009-04-22T19:02:37Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > You shoudl also note that for once I don’t think I disagree with Diogenes, though we have very differnt points of view on the matter. Dio says that God could just not make the evil people. > > Well, yeah. But he loves them, too. > > I know that’s very hard for us to understand. But God loves even people like Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, of Gengis Khan. Or Satan, for that matter. He may send them out and away from himself inifinitely because they can no longer accept or tolerate any goodness anymore, but it was always and always remains their choice. But surely they don’t exist until he makes them, right? And if you’re suggesting that God loves even theoretical humans, we’re in luck, because there are infinite amounts of entirely good theoretical humans for him to elect to give life. So he may be able to create only those who will be able to accept and tolerate goodness - because he loves both good and evil people, this point makes the good the better choice, so he can himself happily pick only them. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2009, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/51 "2009-04-22T19:09:13Z")
That’s my response. How can God love people who never exist? ---
**Author:** ![Lacunae\_Quell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lacunae\_Quell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lacunae_Quell)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/52 "2009-04-23T02:08:56Z")
Everything was created in the beginning. Human souls aren’t created upon conception… that soul has existed since the beginning. Human souls aren’t infinite, they are numbered… but there is obviously a lot of them. All these souls have already made their choice whether to serve God and His goodness and righteousness or reject God and desire to live in evil and corruption… but they still have to make the choices that lead up to their ultimate decision. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/53 "2009-04-23T02:18:38Z")
> [@Lacunae\_Quell](#): > > Everything was created in the beginning. Human souls aren’t created upon conception… that soul has existed since the beginning. Human souls aren’t infinite, they are numbered… but there is obviously a lot of them. All these souls have already made their choice whether to serve God and His goodness and righteousness or reject God and desire to live in evil and corruption… but they still have to make the choices that lead up to their ultimate decision. I’ve a question; will all of these numbered human souls get the chance at life? That is to say, come the reckoning (in whatever form you believe), there will be zero human souls not yet incarnated, and by the same token after the last soul has been incarnated, pregnancy will be impossible? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/54 "2009-04-23T02:26:01Z")
It doesn’t matter when they were created. If God created them, then God had the option “in the beginning” to NOT create souls who would choose to be dickbags. ---
**Author:** ![Lacunae\_Quell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lacunae\_Quell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lacunae_Quell)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/55 "2009-04-23T03:35:21Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > I’ve a question; will all of these numbered human souls get the chance at life? That is to say, come the reckoning (in whatever form you believe), there will be zero human souls not yet incarnated, and by the same token after the last soul has been incarnated, pregnancy will be impossible? I’m not saying that at all. There is a promised judgment and end of time. After that all souls are giving their eternal rewards. There will eventually be no need for pregnancy. ---
**Author:** ![Lacunae\_Quell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lacunae\_Quell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lacunae_Quell)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/56 "2009-04-23T03:37:29Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > It doesn’t matter when they were created. If God created them, then God had the option “in the beginning” to NOT create souls who would choose to be dickbags. The point is that those who become dickbags did so because of their own choices. God gives every soul a fair chance at life and every opportunity to accept the gift of eternal life, and will do so until the judgment. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/57 "2009-04-23T04:46:13Z")
> [@Lacunae\_Quell](#): > > I’m not saying that at all. There is a promised judgment and end of time. After that all souls are giving their eternal rewards. There will eventually be no need for pregnancy. Well, that’s kind of why I asked - to learn what you thought. 😉 If, then, not all human souls are incarnated, then surely it only makes sense that God would select only those who will choose to do good to incarnate out of the many? And more to the topic of your latest post, if there will go human souls unincarnated by the end of human physical existence as we know it, and these souls will yet go on to their eternal reward, why do any souls need to be incarnated? ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/58 "2009-04-23T10:45:24Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > It doesn’t matter when they were created. If God created them, then God had the option “in the beginning” to NOT create souls who would choose to be dickbags. What good would that be? Free will doesn’t mean you get to do everything you want to do, except that I’m limiting what you want to do right at the start so you don’t do anything I don’t like. It’s like the Twilight Zone version of hell, where you get absolutely everything you want all the time. You know it’s phony bullshit, you need to lose once in a while for the wins to matter. Take your children for example. You want them to love you, but would that love be meaningful if you downloaded a program into their brain at birth to force them to love you? It’s the same thing with God. What good are our achievements if he simply forced us to do it by design? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/59 "2009-04-23T14:38:59Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > What good would that be? Free will doesn’t mean you get to do everything you want to do, except that I’m limiting what you want to do right at the start so you don’t do anything I don’t like. > > It’s like the Twilight Zone version of hell, where you get absolutely everything you want all the time. You know it’s phony bullshit, you need to lose once in a while for the wins to matter. > > Take your children for example. You want them to love you, but would that love be meaningful if you downloaded a program into their brain at birth to force them to love you? It’s the same thing with God. What good are our achievements if he simply forced us to do it by design? There would be no force involved. I’m not talking about disabling the will, just (as I said before) God using his omniscience to only create people who he knows will choose ON THEIR OWN to be good. What does God need to be loved for anyway? ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/60 "2009-04-23T15:04:42Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > God using his omniscience to only create people who he knows will choose ON THEIR OWN to be good. If you create something that can only act one way (good) you cannot claim they are acting that way by their own choice. You have limited the way in which they can act, you have chosen for them. He also chose to make us in “his image” which suggests that putting limitations on our behavior would violate that concept. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853.md?page=4)