# Believers: Why doesn't God save martyrs from torture and death? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 21, 2009, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853 "2009-04-21T15:16:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/61 "2009-04-23T15:13:52Z")
I understand **Diogenes** ’s point. Knowledge of future choices does not force the future choices. At least if you believe that free will is possible. I think my objection to it is that there does seem to exist people who intentionally choose to do evil. So, for whatever reason, God has not chosen to create only people who will choose to be good. You may ask why God has not made that choice. That’s really no different asking why God created the universe with the Big Bang rather than a six-day work week. Or why the fine structure constant is about 1/137 instead of 42. The world is what the world is. Just because we can imagine ways in which we think the world would be better, doesn’t mean the world would actually be better if it were that way. The answer to the problem of evil that satisfies me the best is: we are actually in the best of all worlds. And “best” may be measured by criteria that we cannot fully understand. There’s no requirement that the world be fully comprehensible by us. No one would claim to understand all the mechanical aspects of the universe. Likewise, understanding all the moral aspects of the world is probably impossible as well. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/62 "2009-04-23T15:14:17Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > If you create something that can only act one way (good) you cannot claim they are acting that way by their own choice. Not at all. They can act any way they want. You’re just pre-selecting the ones who choose by themselves to act good, you’re not removing any of their abilities. From God’s perspective, it’s no different from knowing what they’ll do AFTER they do it. He’s not affecting their choices, just evaluating them in advance. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/63 "2009-04-23T16:11:50Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > If you create something that can only act one way (good) you cannot claim they are acting that way by their own choice. You have limited the way in which they can act, you have chosen for them. So, you believe that everyone that you know is quite likely to spontaneously decide to rip the heart out of the next person they see, and eat it? Or does their failure to do so mean that they don’t have free will? Because if _you_, a mere mortal, can quite certain a person won’t spontaneously decide to become a killing machine without that being a limit on their free will, then an onmitient god could be _completely_ certain about what kind of decisions a person would make without limiting their free will. And then, he could just decide not to bother to create people who he knows (prior to creating them, being omnitient) will freely choose to behave in ways that he does not approve of. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/64 "2009-04-23T16:42:36Z")
> [@Lacunae\_Quell](#): > > The point is that those who become dickbags did so because of their own choices. Was Pharoah a dickbag toward the Hebrews of his own will? ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/65 "2009-04-23T17:15:41Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > He’s not affecting their choices, just evaluating them in advance. And choosing to obliterate from existence anyone who’s choices would not match up with his pre-determined set of acceptable choices. I suppose you can call that “free” will (at least for those who haven’t been wiped from reality) but it smells a lot more like Kim Jong Il getting 100% of the votes in a totally “free” election. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/66 "2009-04-23T17:24:24Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > So, you believe that everyone that you know is quite likely to spontaneously decide to rip the heart out of the next person they see, and eat it? Likely? Who said anything about likely? Free will means that the next person I see can act in any way he feels he wants to act. There are plenty of people out there who spontaneously choose to kill other people, whether it’s for money, or ego, or hate or mental disease, people do choose to kill other people for some really lousy reasons. Are you so certain that the next person you see won’t spontaneously decide to become a killing machine, that you’d be willing to walk through, let’s say Mogadishu, in the dead of night? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/67 "2009-04-23T17:46:39Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > And choosing to obliterate from existence anyone who’s choices would not match up with his pre-determined set of acceptable choices. I suppose you can call that “free” will (at least for those who haven’t been wiped from reality) but it smells a lot more like Kim Jong Il getting 100% of the votes in a totally “free” election. You can’t obliterate that which doesn’t yet exist. Which kind of takes the teeth out of your argument here. > [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Likely? Who said anything about likely? Free will means that the next person I see can act in any way he feels he wants to act. There are plenty of people out there who spontaneously choose to kill other people, whether it’s for money, or ego, or hate or mental disease, people do choose to kill other people for some really lousy reasons. > > Are you so certain that the next person you see won’t spontaneously decide to become a killing machine, that you’d be willing to walk through, let’s say Mogadishu, in the dead of night? No, but I’m not omnitient. And even so I am sure _enough_ that they’re predictable that I don’t run in terror from their potential to suddenly become killers. If you keep at these god debates, you’ll soon come to understand that when you give an entity extreme capabilities, it naturally pushes other aspects of the discussion into the extreme too. I have the ability to predict, for example, that my mother will _never_ become a killing machine, and I’d be willing to bet on it. God, being supposedly a fair bit more informed than I am, could make that determination much earlier. Like when she was still on the drawing board. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/68 "2009-04-23T17:54:00Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > And choosing to obliterate from existence anyone who’s choices would not match up with his pre-determined set of acceptable choices. They’re not obliterated because they never existed. ---
**Author:** ![Lacunae\_Quell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lacunae\_Quell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lacunae_Quell)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/69 "2009-04-23T17:56:54Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Well, that’s kind of why I asked - to learn what you thought. 😉 > > If, then, not all human souls are incarnated, then surely it only makes sense that God would select only those who will choose to do good to incarnate out of the many? And more to the topic of your latest post, if there will go human souls unincarnated by the end of human physical existence as we know it, and these souls will yet go on to their eternal reward, why do any souls need to be incarnated? God still give those who will choose to do bad their opportunity of freewill to make the crucial choice in life… whether for the good or the bad. If God just incarnated good souls and not bad souls, then the bad souls would never have the chance to make the right choice, and that would be God interfering with the freewill of the human soul. We as humans can do whatever we damn well please and God doesn’t stop us… but to every choice there is a consequence… and God created all souls to serve Him… so all souls start out pure but are born into sin, and the minute they are born into that sin, from that point on, they learn the differences between right and wrong all throughout their life, and they make their own freewill decisions that will ultimately unite them with God or separate them from God… God gives all human souls that choice because God desires that all of humankind comes to know Him and live as He intended for us to live, and the life He intended for humankind is a life of peace, joy, harmony, and love… a life without sin. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/70 "2009-04-23T17:59:15Z")
> [@Lacunae\_Quell](#): > > God still give those who will choose to do bad their opportunity of freewill to make the crucial choice in life… whether for the good or the bad. If God just incarnated good souls and not bad souls, then the bad souls would never have the chance to make the right choice, and that would be God interfering with the freewill of the human soul. We as humans can do whatever we damn well please and God doesn’t stop us… but to every choice there is a consequence… and God created all souls to serve Him… so all souls start out pure but are born into sin, and the minute they are born into that sin, from that point on, they learn the differences between right and wrong all throughout their life, and they make their own freewill decisions that will ultimately unite them with God or separate them from God… God gives all human souls that choice because God desires that all of humankind comes to know Him and live as He intended for us to live, and the life he intended for humankind is a life of peace, joy, harmony, and love… a life without sin. What definition of free will are you using? The predictable kind, or the unpredictable\* kind? - and how would that differ from complete randomity? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/71 "2009-04-23T18:04:16Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Likely? Who said anything about likely? Free will means that the next person I see can act in any way he feels he wants to act. There are plenty of people out there who spontaneously choose to kill other people, whether it’s for money, or ego, or hate or mental disease, people do choose to kill other people for some really lousy reasons. > > Are you so certain that the next person you see won’t spontaneously decide to become a killing machine, that you’d be willing to walk through, let’s say Mogadishu, in the dead of night? If you’re omniscient you don’t have to guess. It’s like it already happened. ---
**Author:** ![Lacunae\_Quell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lacunae\_Quell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lacunae_Quell)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/72 "2009-04-23T18:07:05Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > What does God need to be loved for anyway? I John 4:6-9 1. We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error. 2. Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. 3. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. 4. In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. God doesn’t need our love. He desires our love because He IS Love. The more people who truly love and love God make God stronger… that’s why there isn’t much evidence of God… there isn’t enough love in the world. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/73 "2009-04-23T18:13:42Z")
> [@Lacunae\_Quell](#): > > God still give those who will choose to do bad their opportunity of freewill to make the crucial choice in life… whether for the good or the bad. If God just incarnated good souls and not bad souls, then the bad souls would never have the chance to make the right choice, and that would be God interfering with the freewill of the human soul. Why doesn’t he just skip creating the bad souls altogether? ---
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/74 "2009-04-23T18:14:25Z")
**LQ** Man you do come out with some twaddle ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/75 "2009-04-23T18:17:46Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > If you’re omniscient you don’t have to guess. It’s like it already happened. How does something already happen if the actor never existed? How does God “evaluate” something that does not exist? Leaving those aside, let’s say it’s exactly as you say it is. God evaluates in advance people who may be created, and chooses only to create those who will act “good”. In essence, he’s creating people who are good by design by only choosing the “good” designs. These people do not act good because of free will, they act good because they are designed to act good. They cannot choose to act bad, because if they would ever choose to act bad, they would never have been created in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/76 "2009-04-23T18:20:47Z")
> [@Lacunae\_Quell](#): > > God doesn’t need our love. He desires our love because He IS Love. The more people who truly love and love God make God stronger… that’s why there isn’t much evidence of God… there isn’t enough love in the world. God is already omnipotent. How can he become “stronger” if he’s already infinitely strong? What does he need to be “stronger” for anyway? Is he training for a fight? What does love have to do with God being able to demonstrate hos own existence? Why should he expect to be loved by people who have no reason to believe he exists? How is it even _possible_ to love something you’re only _guessing_ might exist? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/77 "2009-04-23T18:22:23Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > How does something already happen if the actor never existed? How does God “evaluate” something that does not exist? About the same way I look at a design for a sledgehammer made out of glass and say, “That’s not a good idea”. Only moreso. > [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Leaving those aside, let’s say it’s exactly as you say it is. God evaluates in advance people who may be created, and chooses only to create those who will act “good”. In essence, he’s creating people who are good by design by only choosing the “good” designs. These people do not act good because of free will, they act good because they are designed to act good. They cannot choose to act bad, because if they would ever choose to act bad, they would never have been created in the first place. So what? How is this a problem? He’s not actually restricting anyone’s liberty. And I think your logic is incorrect in saying they don’t act good because of free will. They still _have_ free will, it was never removed. (And what definition of free will are _you_ using?) ---
**Author:** ![Lacunae\_Quell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lacunae\_Quell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lacunae_Quell)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/78 "2009-04-23T18:28:39Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > What definition of free will are you using? The predictable kind, or the unpredictable\* kind? > > - and how would that differ from complete randomity? A bit of both… Okay… let’s talk about Bob. Bob is 18. God is watching Bob. God wants to give Bob some chances to make the right choices. In front of Bob is a path. This path has a path for every choice he’ll make in life and the path Bob takes always leads to another set of paths to choose. God is watching Bob. God ignores everything in front of Bob and watches the paths Bob takes. Bob comes to good paths and bad paths and has the freewill to take the path he wants and God will allow him to do so. The good paths lead to more bad paths, but at least one good path, and the more good paths he takes the more good paths exist, but there is ALWAYS at least one bad path. The bad paths lead to all bad paths and the number of good paths become fewer and fewer and more and more less noticeable, but there is always at least one good path. God is always watching Bob. The more paths Bob chooses to take the more predictable Bob’s later choices become and based on the paths Bob chooses to take, God will be able to foresee Bob’s ultimate choice, but God gives Bob every chance He can give him to choose the right path, no matter what path he’s currently on. God knows those who are predestined to be with Him and those who choose not to be with Him. God gives every person the same chance to take the right paths and always provides an escape from the wrong paths. All the good paths are the straight and narrow and lead to righteousness. The bad paths are broad and crooked and lead to destruction. God wants all human souls to be with Him… and He gives all human souls the chance to be with Him, even though He knows those who ultimately will reject Him… He still gives them the chance to come to Him because He loves all human souls. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/79 "2009-04-23T18:33:06Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > So what? How is this a problem? He’s not actually restricting anyone’s liberty. Because it’s free will in only the most hyper technical ultra-bullshit way. “Sure, you have free will to do anything you want because I’ve already vetted you and would never have allowed you to exist if you would EVER choose to do something I don’t like.” It’s free will for the ultimate control freak, who can only abide people “free willing” themselves to do exactly what he wants them to do. ---
**Author:** ![Lacunae\_Quell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lacunae\_Quell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lacunae_Quell)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/80 "2009-04-23T18:36:22Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Why doesn’t he just skip creating the bad souls altogether? Because in the beginning everything was created together and God said ALL of His creation was GOOD. All humans souls that would ever exist were created in the beginning and each one was good. It wasn’t until Adam and Eve sinned for the first time that the human souls being born into the world were corrupted with sin. So it wasn’t until after Adam and Eve sinned that God knew which souls would and wouldn’t choose to serve Him… but those souls still had to be born and make their own freewill decision about choosing God and serving Him and believing in Him and doing everything possible to build a relationship with Him the way He has instructed us. God is Love. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853.md?page=5)