# Believers: Why doesn't God save martyrs from torture and death? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 21, 2009, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853 "2009-04-21T15:16:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/81 "2009-04-23T18:36:36Z")
> [@Lacunae\_Quell](#): > > A bit of both… > > Okay… let’s talk about Bob. Bob is 18. God is watching Bob. God wants to give Bob some chances to make the right choices. In front of Bob is a path. This path has a path for every choice he’ll make in life and the path Bob takes always leads to another set of paths to choose. God is watching Bob. God ignores everything in front of Bob and watches the paths Bob takes. Bob comes to good paths and bad paths and has the freewill to take the path he wants and God will allow him to do so. The good paths lead to more bad paths, but at least one good path, and the more good paths he takes the more good paths exist, but there is ALWAYS at least one bad path. The bad paths lead to all bad paths and the number of good paths become fewer and fewer and more and more less noticeable, but there is always at least one good path. God is always watching Bob. The more paths Bob chooses to take the more predictable Bob’s later choices become and based on the paths Bob chooses to take, God will be able to foresee Bob’s ultimate choice, but God gives Bob every chance He can give him to choose the right path, no matter what path he’s currently on. > God knows those who are predestined to be with Him and those who choose not to be with Him. God gives every person the same chance to take the right paths and always provides an escape from the wrong paths. All the good paths are the straight and narrow and lead to righteousness. The bad paths are broad and crooked and lead to destruction. > > God wants all human souls to be with Him… and He gives all human souls the chance to be with Him, even though He knows those who ultimately will reject Him… He still gives them the chance to come to Him because He loves all human souls. Or we could talk about [Melissa Huckaby](http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/04/22/california.slain.girl/). Melissa is 28 and knows a little girl–just a baby, really–named Sandra Cantu, who is her daughter’s playmate. God is watching Melissa, as he watches everyone. He watches her as Melissa abducts, rapes, and murders this little girl. He does not strike Melissa down with a thunderbolt or a micrometeor or a stroke or even a charlie horse during this vicious crime, though he could, what with being omnipotent and all; though he supposedly cares about every falling sparrow. But he does nothing. He doesn’t send the archangel Gabriel down to save Sandra, or send any of his human worshippers to help. No, he just opens only sleepy eye, watches the rape and murder, shrugs, and goes back to sleep. Or maybe he just doesn’t exist and thus cannot be criticized for not intervening, any more than Superman can. I kind of hope it’s the latter, because otherwise God is evil. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/82 "2009-04-23T18:37:59Z")
> [@Lacunae\_Quell](#): > > God doesn’t need our love. He desires our love because He IS Love. The more people who truly love and love God make God stronger… that’s why there isn’t much evidence of God… there isn’t enough love in the world. (Underlining added for emphasis.) Are you saying that God can be improved? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/83 "2009-04-23T18:38:36Z")
> [@Lacunae\_Quell](#): > > A bit of both… > > Okay… let’s talk about Bob. Bob is 18. God is watching Bob. God wants to give Bob some chances to make the right choices. In front of Bob is a path. This path has a path for every choice he’ll make in life and the path Bob takes always leads to another set of paths to choose. God is watching Bob. God ignores everything in front of Bob and watches the paths Bob takes. Bob comes to good paths and bad paths and has the freewill to take the path he wants and God will allow him to do so. The good paths lead to more bad paths, but at least one good path, and the more good paths he takes the more good paths exist, but there is ALWAYS at least one bad path. The bad paths lead to all bad paths and the number of good paths become fewer and fewer and more and more less noticeable, but there is always at least one good path. God is always watching Bob. **The more paths Bob chooses to take the more predictable Bob’s later choices become and based on the paths Bob chooses to take, God will be able to foresee Bob’s ultimate choice** , but God gives Bob every chance He can give him to choose the right path, no matter what path he’s currently on. > **God knows those who are predestined to be with Him** and those who choose not to be with Him. God gives every person the same chance to take the right paths and always provides an escape from the wrong paths. All the good paths are the straight and narrow and lead to righteousness. The bad paths are broad and crooked and lead to destruction. > > God wants all human souls to be with Him… and He gives all human souls the chance to be with Him, even though He knows those who ultimately will reject Him… He still gives them the chance to come to Him because He loves all human souls. Bolding mine. Based on the first bolded section, Bob is _not_ predictable - in the sense that God cannot know before Bob reaches a fork which path he will take. This presumes an unpredictable sort of free will, which incidentally implies that God isn’t really all that omnitient. The second bolded section, however, is quite clear that Bob _is_ predictable. As there are both “good” and “bad” ways for Bob to exit his decision tree, the ability to predict a “good” outcome explicitly means that some decisions are known in advance - which actually implies that _all_ decisions are known in advance, because to know that Bob will make the right choice at fork 3455123b, you have to know he will _get_ to that fork - which requires you to know all the decisions prior to it. So, which is it? Is Bob predictable, or isn’t he? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/84 "2009-04-23T18:41:27Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Because it’s free will in only the most hyper technical ultra-bullshit way. > > “Sure, you have free will to do anything you want because I’ve already vetted you and would never have allowed you to exist if you would EVER choose to do something I don’t like.” > > It’s free will for the ultimate control freak, who can only abide people “free willing” themselves to do exactly what he wants them to do. Free will that is neither deterministic nor nondeterministic nor any combination of the two is bullshit. Either these people have free will, or they don’t. Either that means they can be predicted, or they can’t be. If they can’t be predicted, that’s fine, but then God isn’t really all that omnitient. If they _can_ be predicted, and God is omnitient, then they still have free will even if God knows that they’re not going to do bad things, and if he only creates good people, they still have full non-technical non-bullshit free will. These are the possible options- pick one. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/85 "2009-04-23T18:44:50Z")
> [@Lacunae\_Quell](#): > > Because in the beginning everything was created together and God said ALL of His creation was GOOD. All humans souls that would ever exist were created in the beginning and each one was good. It wasn’t until Adam and Eve sinned for the first time that the human souls being born into the world were corrupted with sin. > > So it wasn’t until after Adam and Eve sinned that God knew which souls would and wouldn’t choose to serve Him… but those souls still had to be born and make their own freewill decision about choosing God and serving Him and believing in Him and doing everything possible to build a relationship with Him the way He has instructed us. > > God is Love. If nobody could sin before adam and eve sinned, how could they sin? ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/86 "2009-04-23T18:45:58Z")
> [@Lacunae\_Quell](#): > > Because in the beginning everything was created together and God said ALL of His creation was GOOD. All humans souls that would ever exist were created in the beginning and each one was good. It wasn’t until Adam and Eve sinned for the first time that the human souls being born into the world were corrupted with sin. > > So it wasn’t until after Adam and Eve sinned that God knew which souls would and wouldn’t choose to serve Him… but those souls still had to be born and make their own freewill decision about choosing God and serving Him and believing in Him and doing everything possible to build a relationship with Him the way He has instructed us. > > God is Love. If only God hadn’t placed the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden, along with the Serpent to [ddel]do his dirty work[/del] tempt Adam & Eve into disobeying him, and lied to A & E about the nature of the Tree in the first place. But it’s not God’s fault; a bigger God bullied him into it. ---
**Author:** ![Lacunae\_Quell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lacunae\_Quell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lacunae_Quell)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/87 "2009-04-23T18:48:03Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > God is already omnipotent. How can he become “stronger” if he’s already infinitely strong? What does he need to be “stronger” for anyway? Is he training for a fight? > > What does love have to do with God being able to demonstrate hos own existence? Why should he expect to be loved by people who have no reason to believe he exists? How is it even _possible_ to love something you’re only _guessing_ might exist? The more true love there is, the more God exists. God is omnipotent, and nothing is more powerful than God. Love, when it exists in purity, is the strongest force. I’m talking about Him becoming more powerful in this world. If everyone loved God, God would be able to show us the love He has for us in amazing ways you can’t even begin to imagine. Not everyone in this world loves God, so naturally, the Holy Spirit is being suppressed by the powers of Anti-Christ… although after the judgment (because God already won the fight and doesn’t need to train for any fight) Love will exist completely separated from hate because in the end Love will completely overpower Hate. I have every reason to believe He exists, and so do millions of other people. I’m not just guessing God exists. I know He exists. I have no doubt. I’ve experienced true love, and I have come to recognize that there is no power or force or feeling greater than true love. God is Love. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/88 "2009-04-23T18:49:35Z")
> [@Lacunae\_Quell](#): > > God is Love. So why didn’t he save Sandra? Why did he permit Melissa to become corrupted so that she would rape and murder Sandra? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/89 "2009-04-23T18:51:21Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > How does something already happen if the actor never existed? How does God “evaluate” something that does not exist? I know it’s paradoxical, but I’m not the one who made up these superpowers for God. The omniscience/free will paradox is something that people have noticed for a long time. If God knows everything before it happens, then he knows if people will be good or bad before he creates them. That means there has to be some level of “design,” no matter what. There has to be some kind of decision making process being employed by God as to what he will create, and that process involves perfect foreknowledge. He either has to consciously _decide_ to create people who knows will choose evil or he’s not omniscient. Either that or he lacks the power NOT to create, which would mean he’s not omnipotent. > [@](#): > > Leaving those aside, let’s say it’s exactly as you say it is. God evaluates in advance people who may be created, and chooses only to create those who will act “good”. In essence, he’s creating people who are good by design by only choosing the “good” designs. These people do not act good because of free will, they act good because they are designed to act good. They cannot choose to act bad, because if they would ever choose to act bad, they would never have been created in the first place. This is like saying it’s impossible to choose good. Do you agree there are people who freely choose good? Do those people have free will? Did God know they were going to do that before he created them? If you answered yes to all those questions then you can’t say it’s impossible for God to create people he knows will freely choose good. If it’s possible for God to create people he knows will freely choose good, then it’s possible for God to create ONLY those people. Why does it stop being free will for any one of them just because all the others are freely choosing good? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/90 "2009-04-23T18:52:37Z")
> [@Lacunae\_Quell](#): > > The more true love there is, the more God exists. God is omnipotent, and nothing is more powerful than God. Love, when it exists in purity, is the strongest force. I’m talking about Him becoming more powerful in this world. If everyone loved God, God would be able to show us the love He has for us in amazing ways you can’t even begin to imagine. Not everyone in this world loves God, so naturally, the Holy Spirit is being suppressed by the powers of Anti-Christ… although after the judgment (because God already won the fight and doesn’t need to train for any fight) Love will exist completely separated from hate because in the end Love will completely overpower Hate. > > I have every reason to believe He exists, and so do millions of other people. I’m not just guessing God exists. I know He exists. I have no doubt. I’ve experienced true love, and I have come to recognize that there is no power or force or feeling greater than true love. > > God is Love. I’m pretty sure that rather a lot of those millions of people believe in a different God than you. ---
**Author:** ![Lacunae\_Quell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lacunae\_Quell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lacunae_Quell)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/91 "2009-04-23T18:55:19Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Or we could talk about [Melissa Huckaby](http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/04/22/california.slain.girl/). Melissa is 28 and knows a little girl–just a baby, really–named Sandra Cantu, who is her daughter’s playmate. God is watching Melissa, as he watches everyone. He watches her as Melissa abducts, rapes, and murders this little girl. He does not strike Melissa down with a thunderbolt or a micrometeor or a stroke or even a charlie horse during this vicious crime, though he could, what with being omnipotent and all; though he supposedly cares about every falling sparrow. But he does nothing. He doesn’t send the archangel Gabriel down to save Sandra, or send any of his human worshippers to help. No, he just opens only sleepy eye, watches the rape and murder, shrugs, and goes back to sleep. > > Or maybe he just doesn’t exist and thus cannot be criticized for not intervening, any more than Superman can. > > I kind of hope it’s the latter, because otherwise God is evil. God does not interfere with freewill. This is why God created Heaven and Hell as eternal rewards… so those who rape and murder innocent children have a place to rot while the child escapes such an awful cruel world… a world that would’ve been the death of her anyway… and gives her a peaceful rest. Who is to say that God won’t allow her soul to be reincarnated into another body? People of all ages die each and every day… from natural and unnatural and horrible reasons… THAT’S LIFE… but God doesn’t sleep through it and just shrug it off. He will judge each soul for each choice it made in life and will reward that soul with either Heaven or Hell. God is merciful, forgiving, loving, patient, kind… but people have to make the choices to be like God… and if they don’t make that choice God won’t usually stop them… but He is the supreme Judge of all human souls… and what He doesn’t deal with with a bolt of lightning He will deal with with the flames of Hell. ---
**Author:** ![Lacunae\_Quell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lacunae\_Quell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lacunae_Quell)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/92 "2009-04-23T18:58:00Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > (Underlining added for emphasis.) Are you saying that God can be improved? No… I’m saying God’s love and power would be magnified in the lives of those who choose to be like God… thus making His power greater in this world. If more people wanted to be like God it wouldn’t surprise me at all if He started sending lightning bolts down to strike dead those who do awful things to children. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/93 "2009-04-23T18:58:19Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > It’s free will for the ultimate control freak, who can only abide people “free willing” themselves to do exactly what he wants them to do. Isn’t that pretty much theistic religion in a nutshell? The western religious concept of free will isn’t really free will. True free will would mean that you would still get the same consequences either way. Once you introduce reward and punishment into the equation, you have coercion. A coerced choice for good is not freely chosen. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/94 "2009-04-23T19:01:57Z")
**Lacunae Quell** , a brief question. Let’s say I came upon Melissa Huckaby as she was just beginning to rape and murder the little girl. I see the child being assaulted, but not yet so grievously injured that she is doomed to die. Now I’m willing to bet that I’m a good deal bigger than Melissa, and I could probably have saved the baby from that fate. Would it be a sin for me not to intervene? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/95 "2009-04-23T19:43:19Z")
> [@Lacunae\_Quell](#): > > God does not interfere with freewill. Yes, he does, and there is scriptural proof of this: > [@](#): > > **Exodus 9:12** > But the LORD hardened Pharaoh’s heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said to Moses. > > **Exodus 10:20** > But the LORD hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he would not let the Israelites go. > > **Exodus 10:27** > But the LORD hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he was not willing to let them go. > > **Exodus 11:10** > Moses and Aaron performed all these wonders before Pharaoh, but the LORD hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he would not let the Israelites go out of his country. > > **Exodus 14:8** > The LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, so that he pursued the Israelites, who were marching out boldly. > > **Joshua 11:19-20** > Except for the Hivites living in Gibeon, not one city made a treaty of peace with the Israelites, who took them all in battle. 20 For it was the LORD himself who hardened their hearts to wage war against Israel, so that he might destroy them totally, exterminating them without mercy, as the LORD had commanded Moses. Your god found it useful to put the Hebrews through tribulation, so he forced Pharaoh to hold them in bondage. That is not consistent with your claims that god never interferes with free will. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/96 "2009-04-23T21:01:53Z")
> [@Lacunae\_Quell](#): > > God still give those who will choose to do bad their opportunity of freewill to make the crucial choice in life… whether for the good or the bad. If God just incarnated good souls and not bad souls, then the bad souls would never have the chance to make the right choice, and that would be God interfering with the freewill of the human soul. We as humans can do whatever we damn well please and God doesn’t stop us… but to every choice there is a consequence… and God created all souls to serve Him… so all souls start out pure but are born into sin, and the minute they are born into that sin, from that point on, they learn the differences between right and wrong all throughout their life, and they make their own freewill decisions that will ultimately unite them with God or separate them from God… God gives all human souls that choice because God desires that all of humankind comes to know Him and live as He intended for us to live, and the life He intended for humankind is a life of peace, joy, harmony, and love… a life without sin. Then, logically, there is a finite amount of human souls, and upon the time that the number of those souls runs out, there can be no pregnancy, since any new human would have no soul, they already having all been incarnated. This also posits a rather worrying interference of God upon free will, since it would mean that until all souls are incarnated, no human may decide to kill us all, or otherwise provide for a situation wherein new humans are not born. Moreover, there’s the problem that other humans interfere with human free will. If babies are killed (as they are), then they don’t get to choose between good and evil, having no conception of it. All those who have died before understanding good and evil have failed in that - and unless you believe in reincarnation, that’s the only chance. So humans go without choosing between good and evil all the time. And this is working on a more personal decision, but I would argue that a “pure” soul and that soul born into a human body and sin is not the same person. To punish the actions of that soul based on the behaviour of a similar, yet different, person, doesn’t really seem all that just to me. And beyond that, if it is God that selects us to be born, our souls incarnated, then that sin is partially his fault. And if he know what choices we will make - good or bad - then he must take partial blame for the actions of the bad, just as he does the actions of the good. And that’s not even getting into the unnecessariness of it all - if God already knows what choices we will make, then incarnation is the difference between knowing that a rapist will elect to rape if given the chance, and allowing that rape to actually occur, causing harm to the victim. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/97 "2009-04-23T21:14:02Z")
::sulk:: Nobody replies to my posts. Can I martyr somebody about this? ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/98 "2009-04-23T21:30:52Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Then, logically, there is a finite amount of human souls, and upon the time that the number of those souls runs out, there can be no pregnancy, since any new human would have no soul, they already having all been incarnated. All species will go extinct, eventually. There’s no reason to expect the human species to be different. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/99 "2009-04-23T21:36:16Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > All species will go extinct, eventually. There’s no reason to expect the human species to be different. Well, for there to be _precisely_ as many births as there are pre-created souls, the extinction of man needs to be precisely on cue. If the species makes it that far God can just kill everyone, but for that to happen, the human ability to make the free-willed choice to nuke the planet into sheet glass has to be curtailed somehow. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaijon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Sinaijon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaijon)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/100 "2009-04-23T21:51:25Z")
In regards to free will, I think CS Lewis sums it up quite nicely, in his book ‘The Problem of Pain’ > [@](#): > > This is no limit to His power. If you choose to say God can give a creature free will and at the same time withhold free will from it’, you have not succeeded in saying anything about God: meaningless combination of words do not suddenly acquire meaning simply because we prefix to them to other words ‘God can’" (p. 18). In the end, "not because His power meets an obstacle, but because nonsense remains nonsense even when we talk it about God. In a similar vein, in Mathematics, we have the concept of infinity. Nothing is bigger than infinity. Well, what about infinity+1? Is infinity+1 \> infinity? No. They are both infinity and all you’ve done is just some nonsensical arithmetic. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853.md?page=6)