# Believers: Why doesn't God save martyrs from torture and death? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 21, 2009, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853 "2009-04-21T15:16:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2009, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/141 "2009-04-25T21:43:31Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > But surely God, being omniscient, has infinite “ideas” for souls? I mean, before Bob’s soul was created God must have come up with the idea for Bob. And if God has to create the souls he thinks of, and he has infinite ideas, then there must be an infinite amount of human souls. Either that, or he does not have to create all souls he thinks of. What do you call someone who deliberately writes a bad program and releases it, knowing that it WILL cause harm? ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2009, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/142 "2009-04-25T21:44:41Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > What do you call someone who deliberately writes a bad program and releases it? The Office Development division at Microsoft, obviously. What a silly question. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2009, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/143 "2009-04-25T21:47:30Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > The Office Development division at Microsoft, obviously. What a silly question. Bill Gates _is_ God! ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2009, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/144 "2009-04-25T21:49:01Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Bill Gates _is_ God! “A” god. He’s kind like Strife and Eris on Hercules: The Legendary Journeys. ---
**Author:** ![Lacunae\_Quell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lacunae\_Quell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lacunae_Quell)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2009, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/145 "2009-04-25T22:42:58Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I notice you used your free will not to respond to the substantive points I made. Probably because I didn’t have anything to say. I could have said something… but your insatiable need to correct my spelling is the only thing I felt was worth responding to. …it makes me think one of two things… 1.) You care enough about me that you don’t want me to look like a jackass. 2.) You will desperately do anything to make yourself look smarter. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/146 "2009-04-26T00:31:27Z")
> [@Lacunae\_Quell](#): > > Probably because I didn’t have anything to say. I could have said something… but your insatiable need to correct my spelling is the only thing I felt was worth responding to. It’s hardly an insatiable need, given that I’ve only corrected your spelling once that I can recall. My problems with your world-view have virtually nothing to do with your spelling. My problems with your world view is that it is simplistic to such a degree that it moves you to propound arguments that are are contraindicated by what I presume to be your purpose here: to witness effectively for Christianity. While I am an atheist, I don’t think myself especially hostile toward Christians as such. I enjoy the contributions of **Malacandra** , **Polycarp** , and **tomndebb** , to pluck three names out of the ether. I don’t think Christians are necessarily stupid, foolish, delusional, or evil, unlike some atheist posters I could name. It is possible to witness effectively for Jesus whileout being logically inconsistent, without being obscurantist, and without engaging in self-deception or deception of others. That is my experience, anyway. Such would _not_ be my experience if you were the only Christian I were acquainted, because your posts are all of those things. Take your assertion above: > [@](#): > > If He wants to create an invisible pink unicorn then He will do it, and just because it’s invisible doesn’t mean it’s not pink. This statement is so ludicrous on its face, so pointless and silly, that anyone who thinks about it can point out its logical (dare I say it?) lacunae. And it’s not necessary. A genuinely thoughtful Christian apologist (C. S. Lewis, natch) long ago pointed out why believing in God’s omniscience need not lead one to such absurdities. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/147 "2009-04-26T01:53:10Z")
> [@Lacunae\_Quell](#): > > if God was interfering with Pharaoh’s freewill it would have made more sense for God to soften Pharaoh’s heart so that Pharaoh would do God’s will. You do not understand the Old Testament, my friend. It was god’s will that the Hebrews be afflicted and rise out of that affliction. It was never his will that his chosen people have an easy road to the promised land. Just like it was god’s will that Jesus suffer and be crucified. God subverts free will when ever it threatens his plan for his puppets to suffer. He forces people to sin in his service. God is a brutal monster. God is evil. ---
**Author:** ![Lacunae\_Quell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lacunae\_Quell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lacunae_Quell)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/148 "2009-04-26T11:08:15Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Does anyone else get tired of seeing this phrase? Look, either God exist somewhere or God exists nowhere. Either he exists during some set duration of time, or he doesn’t exist. > “He exists outside of Space and Time” is nothing more than a nonsense phrase used when all logical arguments about the existence of God have been exhausted-it means absolutely nothing until “outside space” has been found, and/or “outside time” has been observed. Ok… allow me to rephrase the statement. God _transcends_ space and time. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/149 "2009-04-26T11:15:47Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Anyway…this is all my roundabout way of getting to the thread question. Why does God not intervene to save the lives of martyrs? IMHO He does save us from pain if me are martyred, just others don’t see it, they are blinded to it and think the person is suffering much more then they are. This (again IMHO) is part of the mercy of God. The physical life of the body is nothing, these bodies are made to be disposable, so losing a physical life really means nothing in the case of someone who is saved. Paul puts it as: [QUOTE=Philippians 1:21] For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Lacunae\_Quell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lacunae\_Quell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lacunae_Quell)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/150 "2009-04-26T11:38:45Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > It’s hardly an insatiable need, given that I’ve only corrected your spelling once that I can recall. My problems with your world-view have virtually nothing to do with your spelling. My problems with your world view is that it is simplistic to such a degree that it moves you to propound arguments that are are contraindicated by what I presume to be your purpose here: to witness effectively for Christianity. What you expect from me is impossible. You basically want me to put limitations on God. However, I believe in a God that has no limitations _except_ the limits HE can set for Himself. When God is presented without limitations the atheist shudders because that goes against all the atheist believes… that all things have limits and man can reach and overcome those limits. God can do what He wants and does what He wants for His own pleasure. There is no scientific explanation for that, I’m sorry… I really am… but sometimes you just need to accept the fact that you’re a microscopic organism in a vast universe where objects of fire and rock chaotically dance around each other. Anything at anytime is possible and bound to happen, and it does… and there is a world and space and time that man cannot control. That is God. > [@](#): > > While I am an atheist, I don’t think myself especially hostile toward Christians as such. I enjoy the contributions of **Malacandra** , **Polycarp** , and **tomndebb** , to pluck three names out of the ether. I don’t think Christians are necessarily stupid, foolish, delusional, or evil, unlike some atheist posters I could name. It is possible to witness effectively for Jesus whileout being logically inconsistent, without being obscurantist, and without engaging in self-deception or deception of others. How am I logically inconsistent? > [@](#): > > This statement is so ludicrous on its face, so pointless and silly, that anyone who thinks about it can point out its logical (dare I say it?) lacunae. And it’s not necessary. A genuinely thoughtful Christian apologist (C. S. Lewis, natch) long ago pointed out why believing in God’s omniscience need not lead one to such absurdities. I said it was invisible, I didn’t say there wasn’t an eye that couldn’t see it. Just because the human eye doesn’t see the invisible pink unicorn doesn’t mean there isn’t an eye that can. Atheists have a bad habit of telling the believer how God should be instead of listening to how God is. I don’t fully understand God, and what I do understand is so mundane to who and what God really is… but I still know what the basic foundation of that belief is, and that belief is love. I’m fully aware of the absurdity of an invisible pink unicorn. God is in control of His omnipotence and omniscience… it’s not like we have to worry about it… if God wanted to He could very well create an invisible pink unicorn and we’d have nothing to fear… in fact, we wouldn’t even know it was there. Just because something is invisible doesn’t mean it doesn’t have physical properties. If something is invisible it’s just not seen but it still exists. If I was turned invisible, I would still physically exist as I was before being turned invisible. I’d still have my arms and legs and organs and hair and color pigments, they just can’t be seen, but they still exist as they were. If I was turned invisible, there obviously must be means to become visible again, and upon turning visible I would retain my previous physical properties. Thus, an invisible pink unicorn can exist. If something exists there is an eye that sees it. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/151 "2009-04-26T13:34:29Z")
> [@Lacunae\_Quell](#): > > Ok… allow me to rephrase the statement. God _transcends_ space and time. Does this mean something other than “He exists outside time and space”, and if so please define. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/152 "2009-04-26T14:04:11Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Does anyone else get tired of seeing this phrase? Look, either God exist somewhere or God exists nowhere. Either he exists during some set duration of time, or he doesn’t exist. > “He exists outside of Space and Time” is nothing more than a nonsense phrase used when all logical arguments about the existence of God have been exhausted-it means absolutely nothing until “outside space” has been found, and/or “outside time” has been observed. I have a question. Are you saying God can’t exist outside of time and space, as in, nothing can? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/153 "2009-04-26T14:10:20Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I have a question. Are you saying God can’t exist outside of time and space, as in, nothing can? Nope. I’m saying that the phrase “outside space and time” hasn’t been defined, and thus is a null term. ---
**Author:** ![Lacunae\_Quell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lacunae\_Quell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lacunae_Quell)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/154 "2009-04-26T14:11:09Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Does this mean something other than “He exists outside time and space”, and if so please define. [Transcend](http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/transcend) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/155 "2009-04-26T14:19:24Z")
Let’s take the “Outside space and time” hijack [here.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=515483) ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/156 "2009-04-26T14:37:10Z")
I haven’t read the thread but I think the OP is basically a rephrase of “why does God allow evil?” only more specific. I think something pushes mankind forward to discovery, not only on the objective scientific front about how our physical world works but about more subjective things as well, such as Buddha trying to figure out why man suffers. Things like, can we find a sustainable peace for mankind and how do we work toward that end? What is justice? Should we reach out in compassion and mercy to lift up our fellow man or should we just grab all we can for ourselves and those who immediately affect us? I look at folks like MLK and Gandhi and see people who pursued a cause they felt was important enough to risk their lives for and endure the hardships for. They were willing to accept whatever the consequences were for their actions. That’s my view of the Jesus story as well. Martyrs make a commitment to an ideal or concept and live with whatever comes of that commitment even if it’s torture and death. I suppose some might define a merciful God as one who took Joan of Arc quietly in her sleep just after she was condemned. God’s way of saying neener neener to those who had condemned her. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/157 "2009-04-26T18:14:20Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I haven’t read the thread but I think the OP is basically a rephrase of “why does God allow evil?” only more specific. I acknowledged that upthread, 'cept I probably wrote _theodicy_ and _problem of evil_ and other such terms, what with me being an asshole & all. I think something pushes mankind forward to discovery, not only on the objective scientific front about how our physical world works but about more subjective things as well, such as Buddha trying to figure out why man suffers. Things like, can we find a sustainable peace for mankind and how do we work toward that end? What is justice? Should we reach out in compassion and mercy to lift up our fellow man or should we just grab all we can for ourselves and those who immediately affect us? I look at folks like MLK and Gandhi and see people who pursued a cause they felt was important enough to risk their lives for and endure the hardships for. They were willing to accept whatever the consequences were for their actions. That’s my view of the Jesus story as well. Martyrs make a commitment to an ideal or concept and live with whatever comes of that commitment even if it’s torture and death. I suppose some might define a merciful God as one who took Joan of Arc quietly in her sleep just after she was condemned. God’s way of saying neener neener to those who had condemned her. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/158 "2009-04-26T18:17:34Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I acknowledged that upthread, 'cept I probably wrote _theodicy_ and _problem of evil_ and other such terms, what with me being an asshole & all. Evidently I did miss something in the thread. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/159 "2009-04-26T18:20:40Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Evidently I did miss something in the thread. You can’t have missed me being an asshole; you’ve been a member here too long. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853/160 "2009-04-26T18:24:16Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > You can’t have missed me being an asshole; you’ve been a member here too long. 😃 😃 evidently I did because I haven’t thought so during my membership. I’ll try to pay closer attention. 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-doesnt-god-save-martyrs-from-torture-and-death/493853.md?page=9)