# Believing in God and Gay Marriage. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 28, 2018, 9:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-god-and-gay-marriage/820397 "2018-08-28T09:26:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2018, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-god-and-gay-marriage/820397/81 "2018-08-30T17:22:43Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > As an atheist, I come from the perspective that when you define a God you do so by defining what it does, says, and believes. (When defining things that _exist_, you can skip all that and define things temporospatially - ‘Fred’s that guy over there.’) This is quite fascinating. I would argue that God can be derfined temporospatially, in a sense, by defining God simply as “the source of all things”, or “the first cause that brought everything into existence”. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2018, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-god-and-gay-marriage/820397/82 "2018-08-30T18:20:33Z")
> [@senoy](#): > > This is an argument I see all the time and it’s the most confusing thing to me. I just have started to approach it as simply a poor debate tactic and not worthy of serious consideration. The crux of it seems to be that “Christians need to be biblical literalists because then it’s much easier to prove them wrong.” It’s like an argument that all physicists need to believe in the Ether Theory because then I could show them how wrong they are and when I find out that they don’t believe in the Ether Theory, I try to convince them that they should. Anytime someone approaches a conversation with “these are the wrong things that you should believe,” rather than “So, this is what you do believe.” I find that they have little to add to the conversation-I’ve probably already watched whatever youtube video they are now going to reiterate. > > Really though, I think that it (not that it’s the only argument that does this, nor are these types of arguments confined to just one side) is just symptomatic of a modern culture that would rather win a debate than arrive at truth. The goal behind these types of discussions (here and elsewhere) seems much more about scoring points rather than reasoned work towards truth. I feel like this statement is poisoning the well, and there’s not much one can say counter anything that doesn’t sound like some insincere nonsense, after this has been said. But, look, this is a site dedicated to truth and fighting ignorance. If you say, “What is the current, August 30, 2018, Catholic interpretation of chapter X, verse Y of the Bible?” Then there’s an answer that can be given for that, whether the answerer is an atheist, Catholic, Lutheran, or anything else which will gibe completely with Catholic thought, as of August 30, 2018, and everyone will give the same answer. And if you ask which denomination of Christianity, today, is the most friendly to homosexuality, and what’s the interpretations of the Bible that they are applying in order to bolster that view, again there’s a reasonably factual answer that one can give to that. But if you ask _what the Bible says_, devoid of any further information than that, and you’re on a website that is - again - dedicated to truth and fighting ignorance, then the answer **should be** one which is based on what the Bible actually says and which can be supported by history. And if someone says that there are many other interpretations, Catholic, Universalist, etc. that may be true, but irrelevant for the discussion. The question asked was what the Bible says, not what denomination X believes. You are free to follow any denomination you wish. But I presume that the OP is aware of all of the denominations out there and is aware that some of them have chosen to interpret the Bible to be pro-homosexuality. But, by the fact that he’s still asking his question, it’s reasonable to assume that he’s not able to be sufficiently intellectually dishonest to accept those interpretations. At the same time, he wants to be religious and believe in God. My recommendation, which I gave in my first post, is not that he take a literal reading of the Bible, I’m telling him that he should be religious, believe in God, and do so on the basis of trusting that God is benevolent and just to use reason from that point. Trust that that’s what Jesus’ ultimate message was, and don’t worry about anything else. Accepting **any** of the Bible works against the belief in a benevolent God, because while it may well be that most of the Bible clearly goes against basic morality and can clearly be ruled out, there’s still stuff in there that’s more debatable, and that people might take up because they can’t immediately rule it out, and so they’ve taken on a belief without having actually done any questioning. They haven’t gone out and looked up research, they haven’t talked to others, they’ve simply taken the plain reading, right out of the book - written by the same guys that said it’s okay to rape the women of the people you conquer - and accepted it. And because that one sentence wasn’t immediately objectionable, the world becomes just slightly worse. Versus, on the other hand, simply taking the simple message that “God is good”. If you accept just that one statement, and ignore the however many hundreds or thousands of pages of text, then you don’t have to worry about Biblical interpretation and wondering whether your denomination is right, whether that part of the Bible is divinely influenced or just random junk from some person living thousands of years ago, and so on. You can do some research, ask around, think about the question yourself, and do your best job to find God using all of the resources available to a modern day human. You’ll still, probably, end up going the wrong direction every once in a while, but at least you’re one step less likely to go the wrong direction. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2018, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-god-and-gay-marriage/820397/83 "2018-08-30T18:55:23Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Back during Jim Crow days there was a whole network of black lunch counters, clubs and hotels. You think it was okay to tell the lunch counter demonstrators that since there were a whole bunch of places to eat, they had no business bothering the racist owner? > If not, why is this case different? There were plenty of churches preaching segregation back then you know. Oh gee, here we go again. First - Are YOU black? If not, dont ask me this question because you dont have a damn right to ride that coattail. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2018, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-god-and-gay-marriage/820397/84 "2018-08-30T19:03:21Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Oh gee, here we go again. > > First - Are YOU black? > > If not, dont ask me this question because you dont have a damn right to ride that coattail. Like fuck he doesn’t. Answer the question. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2018, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-god-and-gay-marriage/820397/85 "2018-08-30T19:09:12Z")
Look, the Bible is clear in Genesis 2:24 it says “Therefore a man leaves his father and his mother and cleaves to his wife, and they become one flesh.” and Jesus reaffirms this in Matthew 19:4 where he says “He answered, ‘Have you not read that he who made them from the beginning made them male and female,’ and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one’?” Notice - this also is against divorce. Now this is what the bible says. If a Christian chooses to ignore this, that is up to them. Many Christians ignore different parts of the bible. Again, this is part of our faith. Outside our faith we have the laws of our land. If 2 people of the same gender wish to marry and find a judge or someone to perform the ceremony, that is a matter for the state. ---
**Author:** ![senoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@senoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/senoy)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2018, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-god-and-gay-marriage/820397/86 "2018-08-30T19:18:15Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Look, the Bible is clear in Genesis 2:24 it says “Therefore a man leaves his father and his mother and cleaves to his wife, and they become one flesh.” and Jesus reaffirms this in Matthew 19:4 where he says “He answered, ‘Have you not read that he who made them from the beginning made them male and female,’ and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one’?” > > Notice - this also is against divorce. > > Now this is what the bible says. If a Christian chooses to ignore this, that is up to them. Many Christians ignore different parts of the bible. > > Again, this is part of our faith. Outside our faith we have the laws of our land. If 2 people of the same gender wish to marry and find a judge or someone to perform the ceremony, that is a matter for the state. Matthew 19:4 is a red herring. It was an answer to the question ‘Is it permissable for a man to divorce his wife?’ The question had nothing to do with any other type of arrangement, so it wasn’t answered in that context. If someone were to ask, “Is it OK for me to disown my son?’ and I responded 'Sons are connected with their fathers indissoluably.” You can’t then say, “Daughters are not connected in that way.” or “Having a daughter is a terrible thing.” It’s simply something not addressed by either the question or the answer. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2018, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-god-and-gay-marriage/820397/87 "2018-08-30T19:26:33Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Look, the Bible is clear in Genesis 2:24 it says “Therefore a man leaves his father and his mother and cleaves to his wife, and they become one flesh.” and Jesus reaffirms this in Matthew 19:4 where he says “He answered, ‘Have you not read that he who made them from the beginning made them male and female,’ and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one’?” > > Notice - this also is against divorce. > > Now this is what the bible says. If a Christian chooses to ignore this, that is up to them. Many Christians ignore different parts of the bible. > > Again, this is part of our faith. Outside our faith we have the laws of our land. If 2 people of the same gender wish to marry and find a judge or someone to perform the ceremony, that is a matter for the state. You still haven’t answered the question. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2018, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-god-and-gay-marriage/820397/88 "2018-08-30T20:07:48Z")
> [@senoy](#): > > Matthew 19:4 is a red herring. It was an answer to the question ‘Is it permissable for a man to divorce his wife?’ The question had nothing to do with any other type of arrangement, so it wasn’t answered in that context. If someone were to ask, “Is it OK for me to disown my son?’ and I responded 'Sons are connected with their fathers indissoluably.” You can’t then say, “Daughters are not connected in that way.” or “Having a daughter is a terrible thing.” It’s simply something not addressed by either the question or the answer. Why is the concept of “gay marriage” not addressed in Matthew 19:4? Because the very idea of a gay “marriage” would have been utter nonsense to those whom Jesus was addressing. It would have been comical and incomprehensible. It would be like saying “a round square” or “a four-sided triangle”. Marriage has been, since time immemorial and until extremely recently (past 100 years or less), about procreation and raising that offspring in the context of a biological family. Homosexuality was very common in Jesus’ time, even (or especially) among the upper crust of Roman and Greek society. Gay sex was not uncommon and everyone understood that it was for recreation. The very notion of a “gay marriage” would have been absurd. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2018, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-god-and-gay-marriage/820397/89 "2018-08-30T21:41:08Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > This is quite fascinating. I would argue that God can be derfined temporospatially, in a sense, by defining God simply as “the source of all things”, or “the first cause that brought everything into existence”. I presume you realize that if that can’t be answered with a specific time and place where that creative event occurred then it’s not a temporospatial definition. Also there are severe downsides theologically to defining god solely based on its alleged status as a creator - because if I then show that the creation was a giant explosion that left nothing of its original self intact then you just defined your god as something that once existed but which has now been blown to smithereens. This is probably not what the average theist is going for. [/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2018, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-god-and-gay-marriage/820397/90 "2018-08-30T23:09:08Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Oh gee, here we go again. > > First - Are YOU black? > > If not, dont ask me this question because you dont have a damn right to ride that coattail. I am neither black nor gay, so I have as much right to ride one as another. But I was old enough during that time to know what was going on. Anyhow, being a liberal I’m concerned about the rights of others than myself. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2018, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-god-and-gay-marriage/820397/91 "2018-08-30T23:15:00Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Look, the Bible is clear in Genesis 2:24 it says “Therefore a man leaves his father and his mother and cleaves to his wife, and they become one flesh.” and Jesus reaffirms this in Matthew 19:4 where he says “He answered, ‘Have you not read that he who made them from the beginning made them male and female,’ and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one’?” > > Notice - this also is against divorce. > > Now this is what the bible says. If a Christian chooses to ignore this, that is up to them. Many Christians ignore different parts of the bible. > > Again, this is part of our faith. Outside our faith we have the laws of our land. If 2 people of the same gender wish to marry and find a judge or someone to perform the ceremony, that is a matter for the state. That says Christians shouldn’t be gay. It does not address whether serving those who may not be Christian resembles doing it yourself. If the cake maker makes cakes for second marriages - and I bet he does - he is being a hypocrite. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2018, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-god-and-gay-marriage/820397/92 "2018-08-30T23:18:24Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > This is quite fascinating. I would argue that God can be derfined temporospatially, in a sense, by defining God simply as “the source of all things”, or “the first cause that brought everything into existence”. Works for me. Now there are two possibilities - that this God interacts with humans or that it doesn’t. Only those in the second category cause trouble, especially since they are unable to demonstrate this supposed interaction. God belief itself doesn’t cause problems, only God belief with a rule book in the handwriting of the supposed prophet. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2018, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-god-and-gay-marriage/820397/93 "2018-08-30T23:20:16Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > You still haven’t answered the question. Why should I? He was equating being gay and being black. The 2 are NOT the same. My black coworkers get offended by this. if he wants I’ll answer another question though. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2018, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-god-and-gay-marriage/820397/94 "2018-08-31T00:11:50Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Why should I? He was equating being gay and being black. The 2 are NOT the same. My black coworkers get offended by this. > > if he wants I’ll answer another question though. No. He was comparing the statement that the gay couple could have found another baker with the fact that blacks could have found another lunch counter. It is an observation on thise who refused service, not on those who were refused that service. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2018, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-god-and-gay-marriage/820397/95 "2018-08-31T03:33:44Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > You are free to follow any denomination you wish. But I presume that the OP is aware of all of the denominations out there and is aware that some of them have chosen to interpret the Bible to be pro-homosexuality. But, by the fact that he’s still asking his question, it’s reasonable to assume that he’s not able to be sufficiently intellectually dishonest to accept those interpretations. > > At the same time, he wants to be religious and believe in God. > > My recommendation, which I gave in my first post, is not that he take a literal reading of the Bible, I’m telling him that he should be religious, believe in God, and do so on the basis of trusting that God is benevolent and just to use reason from that point. Trust that that’s what Jesus’ ultimate message was, and don’t worry about anything else. I like your recommendation. But I don’t like your characterization of people who interpret the Bible differently than you do as “intellectually dishonest.” I don’t think anyone can really claim that the Bible is actively _pro_-homosexual. But of the handful of passages that address homosexuality (or seem to), I have seen what seem to me to be sincere, sagacious, intellectually honest people come to different conclusions about what exactly is being condemned or talked about. They have different interpretations—“interpretations” here meaning, _not_ attempts to explain away what the Bible clearly says, but attempts to understand what it really says and means when you take into account issues of translation and historical context and such. [One example](https://www.hrc.org/resources/what-does-the-bible-say-about-homosexuality), found by googling: > [@](#): > > At the heart of the claim that the Bible is clear “that homosexuality is forbidden by God” is poor biblical scholarship and a cultural bias read into the Bible. The Bible says nothing about “homosexuality” as an innate dimension of personality. Sexual orientation was not understood in biblical times. There are references in the Bible to same-gender sexual behavior, and all of them are undeniably negative. But what is condemned in these passages is the violence, idolatry and exploitation related to the behavior, not the same-gender nature of the behavior. There are plenty of sites, books, etc. out there that take different sides. I am not competent to evaluate them or judge among them. I’m pretty sure that some are more well-informed, scholarly, and intellectually honest than others, but I’m not at all sure that all the most well-informed and intellectually honest ones are all on the same “side.” For some, this is a non-issue. Some Christians (and of course nonchristians) feel free to disregard the parts of the Bible that seem “wrong” to them. But I think that, even for those who don’t, there’s significant room to not take the exclusionary stance that some (like the OP) seem to think is necessary. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2018, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-god-and-gay-marriage/820397/96 "2018-08-31T04:37:05Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > [One example](https://www.hrc.org/resources/what-does-the-bible-say-about-homosexuality), found by googling:There are plenty of sites, books, etc. out there that take different sides. I am not competent to evaluate them or judge among them. I’m pretty sure that some are more well-informed, scholarly, and intellectually honest than others, but I’m not at all sure that all the most well-informed and intellectually honest ones are all on the same “side.” > > For some, this is a non-issue. Some Christians (and of course nonchristians) feel free to disregard the parts of the Bible that seem “wrong” to them. But I think that, even for those who don’t, there’s significant room to not take the exclusionary stance that some (like the OP) seem to think is necessary. Sure, I’ll grant that the Bible talk about acts not relationships, but as I said earlier in the thread, that’s more a nitpick than a practical answer. Ain’t no one asking whether homosexuality is okay, if they don’t also mean fuckin’. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2018, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-god-and-gay-marriage/820397/97 "2018-08-31T07:04:24Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Why should I? He was equating being gay and being black. The 2 are NOT the same. My black coworkers get offended by this. > > if he wants I’ll answer another question though. No, that was not what I was saying. I was asking if someone should not mind being discriminated against because there are alternate ways of getting something done. In the early 1960s Jews were excluded from certain clubs - though there were mo doubt other clubs. Was that okay also? I’m Jewish, and I don’t mind at all with it being equated with being gay for purposes of examination. But I’m not homophobic. So maybe you could answer the question. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2018, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-god-and-gay-marriage/820397/98 "2018-08-31T07:48:40Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Why should I? He was equating being gay and being black. The 2 are NOT the same. My black coworkers get offended by this. Why on earth is that so offensive? Both are discriminated against and both have no choice in what is a perfectly natural human trait. ---
**Author:** ![Brayne\_Ded](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Brayne\_Ded](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brayne_Ded)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2018, 9:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-god-and-gay-marriage/820397/99 "2018-08-31T09:50:19Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > - In the 18th and 19th centuries many Christians justified slavery on the grounds that the Bible considers it acceptable… which it certainly does. Christians do not do so today. > > - St. Paul said that women should cover their heads with a headscarf and remain silent in church. How many Christians accept that today? > . 1. Oh, where exactly does the Bible support slavery? Bear in mind that it was taken for granted as a social institution in Biblical times in tha rea. 2. It has been said that Christianity ought to be called Paulism, since he largely defined it. That therefore presupposes that his own personal prejudices, quirks and social mores got mixed in. In any case at that time Judaism required women to cover their heads. ---
**Author:** ![Brayne\_Ded](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Brayne\_Ded](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brayne_Ded)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2018, 9:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-god-and-gay-marriage/820397/100 "2018-08-31T09:56:41Z")
I don’t claim to know the Bible well, but where exactly does it say anything about homosexuality? AFAIK, most of the strictures come from Deuteronomy, which is Old Testament. Since we are talking about mainstream Christianity, that means the New Testament. I don’t recall anything in the gospels, but did Paul have something to say on the topic? While I have little liking personally for SSM as an institution, I do not feel that it or homosexuality should be banned. And the NT does stress love of one’s fellow man, in the sense of mankind as a whole and with no sexual connotations whatsoever. So, to refer to the topic, I don’t see why the two cannot be reconciled. Some churches take a differing view, as usual. My take on that: if you don’t like what the church says, find a different one. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-god-and-gay-marriage/820397.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-god-and-gay-marriage/820397.md?page=6)