# Believing In God While Hating Him **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 1, 2010, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-god-while-hating-him/537942 "2010-05-01T03:44:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2010, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-god-while-hating-him/537942/41 "2010-05-01T17:12:01Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > Facts and knowledge are contextual. No fact or knowledge about that fact can exist apart from all other facts or knowledge about them. The “fact” of such a God’s existence would contradict quite a few beliefs of science, logic and epistemology . . . so such a being cannot exist without causing all sorts of contradictions. If anyone claims to be such a being, he is a fraud, and should be exposed . . . like any other con artist. If such a God existed, he might well have arranged for us to believe the conclusions of science, logic, & epistemelogy, though they were in fact false, because it amused him. ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2010, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-god-while-hating-him/537942/42 "2010-05-01T17:21:07Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > That’s Psalm 137, not Jeremiah. Though J may have written it. Too fast, man, too fast. Your comment preceded my final draft. Unfortunately, the quote tags required a good smiting. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2010, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-god-while-hating-him/537942/43 "2010-05-01T17:26:32Z")
Curtis, could you answer the question? That is, how would you feel about such a God? I’m in agreement with the others: the God of the Old Testament is, to all evidence, a horrific being. Not exactly evil personified, but certainly more so than any of Lovecraft’s creations. It was a real relief to me as an adolescent to realize that such a terrifyingly evil entity might not exist. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2010, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-god-while-hating-him/537942/44 "2010-05-01T17:46:05Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Except that wouldn’t work. He abuses his friends as well as his enemies. The God **Curtis** believes in, or affects to believe in, is like an abusive parent who starves his children, leaves food where they can find it, beats them for eating any, and then punishes them further for crying. And yet I’d be begging for mercy anyway. Resistance is futile against **Curtis** ’ God. ---
**Author:** ![Zephyurs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/dfb087/32.png) [@Zephyurs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zephyurs)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2010, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-god-while-hating-him/537942/45 "2010-05-01T18:01:22Z")
Join the resistance. Remember: at least in some versions of Christian theology, Lucifer/Satan (if you consider them the same being) revolted against God–a God that he knew was all-knowing and all-powerful. He knew God on a personal basis better than any of us. And he decided to fight against that wretched being, even knowing that he was probably doomed. Not only that, but a full third of the angels joined in Lucifer’s rebellion. That’s some scary shit, if you think about it (also fits in with the general rule that 2/3 of people are willing to kowtow to amoral power). They all were willing to damn themselves against an unbeatable opponent–only moral principle can drive decisions like that. I’m even willing to bet that the atrocities we know of explicitly ordered by God are just the tip of the iceberg, since the winner gets to rewrite history and elide the most unsavory bits. I’m not sure if we could win, but I think a Lucifer/Cthulhu/human alliance could at least put up an okay fight. Better stand up and be cut down than worship a being that is out to murder, rape, and torture for all eternity every person I love and hold dear. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2010, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-god-while-hating-him/537942/46 "2010-05-01T18:03:51Z")
> [@Zephyurs](#): > > Join the resistance. > > Remember: at least in some versions of Christian theology, Lucifer/Satan (if you consider them the same being) revolted against God–a God that he knew was all-knowing and all-powerful. He knew God on a personal basis better than any of us. And he decided to fight against that wretched being, even knowing that he was probably doomed. > > Not only that, but a full third of the angels joined in Lucifer’s rebellion. That’s some scary shit, if you think about it (also fits in with the general rule that 2/3 of people are willing to kowtow to amoral power). They all were willing to damn themselves against an unbeatable opponent–only moral principle can drive decisions like that. I’m even willing to bet that the atrocities we know of explicitly ordered by God are just the tip of the iceberg, since the winner gets to rewrite history and elide the most unsavory bits. > > I’m not sure if we could win, but I think a Lucifer/Cthulhu/human alliance could at least put up an okay fight. Better stand up and be cut down than worship a being that is out to murder, rape, and torture for all eternity every person I love and hold dear. They all did so by God’s design. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2010, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-god-while-hating-him/537942/47 "2010-05-01T18:18:31Z")
One thing to note is that if the bible is literally correct it hardly suggests that Jehova-dizzle is all powerful from what it shows of his actions. He needs to rest after creating the world. Never mind that it takes six days, that’s a clear indicator that he has limits to his power and how much energy he can expend at once. In response to Satan’s query about Job a truly omnipotent God could have spun off a duplicate reality simulation to show that Job would have stayed loyal. Never mind that he could have just made Satan believe it. So here’s the thing, if he has limitations maybe we could use them. You can be the most powerful thing in the universe and still not be _all-powerful_. Sign me up for the resistance. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2010, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-god-while-hating-him/537942/48 "2010-05-01T18:28:28Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Sign me up for the resistance. Looks like it’s not too hard to thwart the will of Yahweh. > [@Judges1:19](#): > > The LORD was with the men of Judah. They took possession of the hill country, but they were unable to drive the people from the plains, because they had iron chariots. ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2010, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-god-while-hating-him/537942/49 "2010-05-01T18:37:44Z")
So, \*\*Iron Chariots \*\*and **The Sabot of Destiny**. If nothing else the resistance is leading the way in band name production. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2010, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-god-while-hating-him/537942/50 "2010-05-01T18:43:14Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > Looks like it’s not too hard to thwart the will of Yahweh. > > > [@Judges 1:19](#): > > > > The LORD was with the men of Judah. They took possession of the hill country, but they were unable to drive the people from the plains, because they had iron chariots. Oh snap they had cars?! ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2010, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-god-while-hating-him/537942/51 "2010-05-01T18:46:37Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > Oh snap they had cars?! Tanks. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2010, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-god-while-hating-him/537942/52 "2010-05-01T18:59:30Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Of course, and I’ve said so in the past. He’s a monster. > > Fear, hatred, and wondering what he’s really like since it’s logically impossible for such a logically contradictory creature to be true. And, I’d be pretty certain he’s a fake of some kind no matter the evidence; aliens and even time travelers using super-tech to fool us is more plausible than such a thing. Pretty much anything is. (Playing the Devil’s Advocate) Why does this have to be so? I agree the god of Christian theology is logically inconsistent but who says their word is the final one on the nature of God? Imagine you have a fish tank. To the fish you might seem to be a god. You have all sorts of “magical” powers to affect their world. In the fish tank you have a fish that is a predator and you put other fish in it for the predator to eat. To the fish that are food you are a monster. To the predator you are totally cool. Which fish has the right of it? ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2010, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-god-while-hating-him/537942/53 "2010-05-01T19:04:42Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > (Playing the Devil’s Advocate) > > Why does this have to be so? > > I agree the god of Christian theology is logically inconsistent but who says their word is the final one on the nature of God? > > Imagine you have a fish tank. To the fish you might seem to be a god. You have all sorts of “magical” powers to affect their world. In the fish tank you have a fish that is a predator and you put other fish in it for the predator to eat. > > To the fish that are food you are a monster. To the predator you are totally cool. > > Which fish has the right of it? The God of the Bible can speak to us, etc. The only thing saying that his nature is inconceivable to us is his fucking book. That’s bullshit used to justify his actions. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2010, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-god-while-hating-him/537942/54 "2010-05-01T19:09:51Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > The God of the Bible can speak to us, etc. The only thing saying that his nature is inconceivable to us is his fucking book. That’s bullshit used to justify his actions. Amen brother. I agree the Bible is a load of horseshit and provably so. My point however is that despite the bible’s popularity there is nothing that says god must be like they say it is. Indeed if there is a god then “he” almost certainly must be something other than the Bible pictures “him” as. Otherwise you run into a pile of logical inconsistencies not to mention their picture of God in almost no way comports with what we see in the world. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2010, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-god-while-hating-him/537942/55 "2010-05-01T19:32:16Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Amen brother. > > I agree the Bible is a load of horseshit and provably so. > > My point however is that despite the bible’s popularity there is nothing that says god must be like they say it is. Indeed if there is a god then “he” almost certainly must be something other than the Bible pictures “him” as. Otherwise you run into a pile of logical inconsistencies not to mention their picture of God in almost no way comports with what we see in the world. But that’s the point of the thread. “What if the God Christians believe in was real?” ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2010, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-god-while-hating-him/537942/56 "2010-05-01T19:48:04Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > I suspect that many people on this board such as _Der Trihs_ > would hate the God of traditional Christian theology even if His existence was proven. So supposing the God of traditional hellfire and brimstone theology existed how would you react to Him? The God of traditional Christian theology is morally perfect, is omnipotent and omniscient, and places those who don’t love him into a situation of eternal torment. If I came to believe that a being of that description existed, then it follows that I’d have to take seriously the idea that this being is morally perfect. My reaction to this would be utter confusion and dismay. For as long as I remained convinced of the existence of this being, I’d do my best to understand how its existence is possible. I doubt I’d succeed, and I’d bet that after some time, the nonsensicalness of the idea would cause me to once again stop believing in the existence of a being fitting this description. Simply put, it is immoral to cause eternal suffering. (In other words, there can be no moral justification for it.) This means that no being that is morally perfect could perform such an action. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2010, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-god-while-hating-him/537942/57 "2010-05-01T19:51:38Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > But that’s the point of the thread. “What if the God Christians believe in was real?” I predict a great many of them would be initially elated and then shortly horrorstruck. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2010, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-god-while-hating-him/537942/58 "2010-05-01T19:53:30Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > The God of traditional Christian theology is morally perfect, is omnipotent and omniscient, and places those who don’t love him into a situation of eternal torment. > > If I came to believe that a being of that description existed, then it follows that I’d have to take seriously the idea that this being is morally perfect. My reaction to this would be utter confusion and dismay. For as long as I remained convinced of the existence of this being, I’d do my best to understand how its existence is possible. I doubt I’d succeed, and I’d bet that after some time, the nonsensicalness of the idea would cause me to once again stop believing in the existence of a being fitting this description. > > Simply put, it is immoral to cause eternal suffering. (In other words, there can be no moral justification for it.) > > This means that no being that is morally perfect could perform such an action. Actually, it just means that your version of morality is wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2010, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-god-while-hating-him/537942/59 "2010-05-01T19:58:46Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > But that’s the point of the thread. “What if the God Christians believe in was real?” Yeah…maybe I should start a new thread as mine may be a hijack. I think my point stands though. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2010, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-god-while-hating-him/537942/60 "2010-05-01T20:11:34Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > I would throw myself prostrate before him in terrified worship in an attempt to avoid hell. I would be less terrified if I learned that Charles Manson was God. At last! A voice of sanity! If God as described in the OP were to proven to exist, those of you railing at and hating and scorning him and swearing resistance would have far, far less significance than if an ant were to rebel against you. I suspect that in reality all but the most foolish of you would do exactly the same as **AClockworkMelon** said just above. (And probably wet yourself like **Strinka** said, too. :D) Do you really expect us to believe that you would voluntarily spend eternity engulfed in flames simply in order to make it clear to God that you don’t like his way of doing things? The smugness, arrogance and elitism on view in this thread is amusing to behold. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-god-while-hating-him/537942.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-god-while-hating-him/537942.md?page=4)