# Believing In God While Hating Him **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 1, 2010, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-god-while-hating-him/537942 "2010-05-01T03:44:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2010, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-god-while-hating-him/537942/81 "2010-05-01T20:59:59Z")
> [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](#): > > But there are places in the bible where things appear not to go according to plan: Satan’s revolt, Adam’s apple, God bargaining about saving Sodom. Hell, he REMAKES HUMANITY (1,2) in the second chapter of Genesis for Pete’s sake. For someone who is omnipotent and has a detailed plan, he seems to change his mind a fair bit. > > (1)Genesis 1 26-28 > And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. > > (2) Genesis 2, selected verses: > 7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. > 18And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. > 21And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; > 22And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. > 23And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. Don’t question Him! He’ll send us to Hell! You fucking atheist liberals! ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2010, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-god-while-hating-him/537942/82 "2010-05-01T21:01:38Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > Don’t question Him! He’ll send us to Hell! > > You fucking atheist liberals! Buddhist. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2010, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-god-while-hating-him/537942/83 "2010-05-01T21:07:17Z")
> [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](#): > > Buddhist. This is what happens when parents let their boys play Dungeons and Dragons and wear their hair long! ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2010, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-god-while-hating-him/537942/84 "2010-05-01T21:07:20Z")
My brother already posts on this board. Are you my other brother? Or has the deity made his li’l fifth columnist psychic. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2010, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-god-while-hating-him/537942/85 "2010-05-01T21:23:38Z")
> [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](#): > > But there are places in the bible where things appear not to go according to plan: Satan’s revolt, Adam’s apple, God bargaining about saving Sodom. Hell, he REMAKES HUMANITY (1,2) in the second chapter of Genesis for Pete’s sake. For someone who is omnipotent and has a detailed plan, he seems to change his mind a fair bit. And then we’ve got Genesis 3: > [@](#): > > 8And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden. > > 9And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? > > 10And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself. > > 11And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat? > > 12And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat. > > 13And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat. > > 14And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: > > 15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. > > 16Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. > > 17And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; > > 18Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; > > 19In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. > > 20And Adam called his wife’s name Eve; because she was the mother of all living. > > 21Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them. > > 22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: > > 23Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. And cross-apply with Genesis 11: > [@](#): > > 3And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them thoroughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for morter. > > 4And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth. > > 5And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded. > > 6And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. > > 7Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech. Taken at face value, it sounds like (a) he needs to actively step in and deal with such power-ups before it’s too late, and (b) while he’s been able to head people off in the past, folks have also been able to catch him by surprise. Oh, sure, you could say he knew the answers to the questions he posed, but there’s no indication of that in the text. There _ **is** _ indication, however, that he genuinely rested after six days of work – so maybe he’s not omnipotent and omniscient so much as he’s just impressively powerful and pretty well-informed? ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2010, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-god-while-hating-him/537942/86 "2010-05-01T21:30:41Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > so maybe he’s not omnipotent and omniscient so much as he’s just impressively powerful and pretty well-informed? That’s how I’d describe **Czarcasm**. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2010, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-god-while-hating-him/537942/87 "2010-05-01T21:54:09Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > Actually, it just means that your version of morality is wrong. But the Bible says that humans have the same knowledge of right and wrong as God. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2010, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-god-while-hating-him/537942/88 "2010-05-01T21:55:27Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > But the Bible says that humans have the same knowledge of right and wrong as God. Fuck it, I don’t know anymore. I just hope he doesn’t send any more earthquakes our way! ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2010, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-god-while-hating-him/537942/89 "2010-05-01T22:07:26Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > Actually, it just means that your version of morality is wrong. As I said, I’d try as best I could to come to understand how this is possible. And I predict that I’ll fail, and I’ll stop believing in the existence of the being in question as a result. “It’s wrong to cause eternal suffering” is about as axiomatic as it gets, as far as I can tell. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2010, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-god-while-hating-him/537942/90 "2010-05-01T22:10:22Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > But the Bible says that humans have the same knowledge of right and wrong as God. Well… that doesn’t mean that every system of morality that’s expressed is the same as God’s understanding of right and wrong. After all, most of us might simply be lying about what’s right and wrong… ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2010, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-god-while-hating-him/537942/91 "2010-05-01T22:26:04Z")
**Curtis** – what would YOUR reaction be if the God of the Bible was false – and that Christianity was found to be false? That there was a different God altogether? Would YOU hate that God? \*Note: for this exercise, let’s not get into the “what if you found out God didn’t exist.” I’m more interested in finding how he’d react to a DIFFERENT RELIGION being the “true” one. ---
**Author:** ![Fake\_Tales\_of\_San\_Francisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8491ac/32.png) [@Fake\_Tales\_of\_San\_Francisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fake_Tales_of_San_Francisco)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2010, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-god-while-hating-him/537942/92 "2010-05-01T22:27:15Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > He’s omnipotent and all-powerful. He wins automatically. Well, whoever wrote all that fanfiction about him tried to make out like he was. But as others have demonstrated in this thread, and in the other countless other threads on the subject, he does appear to be rather fallible. I mean, if he really was omnipotent and all that jazz, he’d be able to create a perfect world with no death, no sin, none of that crap and _also_ give us freewill, paradox that it is. Paradoxes shouldn’t be a problem for all powering beings though, right? And besides, that’s the deal Christians get in heaven anyway, so obviously he’s capable of creating a world like that or heaven would have the same problems Earth does. Unless heaven actually removes our freewill. But I digress. He’s obviously not as powerful as certain over-excited writers say he is, and it does seem to be possible to screw up his plans (since we have freewill and everything). So vive la resistance. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2010, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-god-while-hating-him/537942/93 "2010-05-01T22:31:46Z")
> [@Fake\_Tales\_of\_San\_Francisco](#): > > Well, whoever wrote all that fanfiction about him tried to make out like he was. But as others have demonstrated in this thread, and in the other countless other threads on the subject, he does appear to be rather fallible. I mean, if he really was omnipotent and all that jazz, he’d be able to create a perfect world with no death, no sin, none of that crap and _also_ give us freewill, paradox that it is. Paradoxes shouldn’t be a problem for all powering beings though, right? > And besides, that’s the deal Christians get in heaven anyway, so obviously he’s capable of creating a world like that or heaven would have the same problems Earth does. Unless heaven actually removes our freewill. > > But I digress. He’s obviously not as powerful as certain over-excited writers say he is, and it does seem to be possible to screw up his plans (since we have freewill and everything). > > So vive la resistance. 🆒 I can understand taking the position that one should resist the traditional Christian god. But in this thread, if you’re trying to be responsive to the OP, it isn’t legitimate to say one should resist because the god in question can be resisted. By stipulation, as stated in the OP when he describes it as the god of “traditional Christian theology,” this entity _can’t_ be resisted. The struggle is hopeless. This doesn’t mean you shouldn’t resist. But let’s be clear: we’re talking about a hopeless struggle that is sure to end in eternal torment. That’s just a given in the thread. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2010, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-god-while-hating-him/537942/94 "2010-05-01T22:35:03Z")
You know, all this talk of resistance action would make a good book or three. This time, throw out all the alternate universe fantasy, narrow it down–here, now, devil, demons, angels, god. From the point of view of the sinners. Left Behind, but from the opposite perspective. I’d read it. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2010, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-god-while-hating-him/537942/95 "2010-05-01T22:39:27Z")
> [@pedescribe](#): > > You know, all this talk of resistance action would make a good book or three. This time, throw out all the alternate universe fantasy, narrow it down–here, now, devil, demons, angels, god. From the point of view of the sinners. Left Behind, but from the opposite perspective. > > I’d read it. Actually… yes. Set in this world, in this time. A group of people somehow find evidence that the Christian God is real and alive, actively watching and judging all of us. They attempt to devise a plan to destroy him. If it was well written I’d read the fuck out of it. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2010, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-god-while-hating-him/537942/96 "2010-05-01T23:44:23Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > I wish I were as brave as you and the others in this thread. I wish I had the balls to risk literally an eternity of the most horrible pain imaginable. > > It’s one thing to stand and face a “strongman,” but the God of the Christian Bible is something else entirely. I would gladly be God’s bitch in exchange for not being tortured forever. _“Here at least we shall be free; the Almighty hath not built Here for his envy, will not drive us hence: Here we may reign secure, and in my choice to reign is worth ambition though in Hell: Better to reign in Hell, than serve in Heaven.”_ Remember, Heaven seems to be an eternity of boot-licking in the presence of someone who, if he were human, could aptly be described as a mass-murdering psychopath. Humanity also seems to have at least some power of the God of the Bible, who is described at various times as jealous and angry - the worst thing you can do is worship another god. Why would he possibly care? Unless our worship of him gives him some power, or ego-trip. Or both. So this implies that we can manipulate the emotions of God, which means at some level we have power over him. In Genesis he seems downright fearful of humanity’s potential, in the story of the Tower of Babel; " 5And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded. 6And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now **nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.** 7Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech. 8So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city. " He is a strongman, whose only claim to ultimate morality is ‘might makes right’, unchallengeable, unappealable. And in this vein he claims that in his book, he is the good one and that Satan, who before man was even created rebelled against him, is the bad one - who at least had the balls to stand up to the tyrant. An all powerful God surely would just will this rebel out of existence, but doesn’t. In Revelation, ‘the dragon’ actually musters the power to stage a war in heaven; " 7And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him." Not strong enough, but at least he puts up a fight - and why does God need Michael? Can’t he just annihilate Satan’s forces with a thought? ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-god-while-hating-him/537942/97 "2010-05-02T00:04:34Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > Actually… yes. > > Set in this world, in this time. A group of people somehow find evidence that the Christian God is real and alive, actively watching and judging all of us. They attempt to devise a plan to destroy him. > > If it was well written I’d read the fuck out of it. This requires a separate thread, something like:\*\*\* How would you go about knocking off a god. \*\*\* ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-god-while-hating-him/537942/98 "2010-05-02T00:06:14Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > But the Bible says that humans have the same knowledge of right and wrong as God. The difference between me and God? I’m still willing to learn from my mistakes. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-god-while-hating-him/537942/99 "2010-05-02T00:09:41Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Give me an eternity, and I _will_ find a way to take him down. I’ll get into the continua buggy, pop on over to the world of the Subtle Knife, and grab it for you just before Will breaks it. Check you sock drawer Monday morning; I should have teleported the Knife there by then. After that you’re on your own. ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-god-while-hating-him/537942/100 "2010-05-02T00:31:45Z")
I note that **AClockworkMelon** [thread=561663]has already started the thread about deicide[/thread]. Way to hustle. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-god-while-hating-him/537942.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-god-while-hating-him/537942.md?page=6)