# Believing in Santa. Believing in God/Satan. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 22, 2003, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544 "2003-12-22T22:47:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2004, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544/222 "2004-01-01T01:53:32Z")
No getting drunk here. But I do need to get off this computer. Been on here too long. Happy New Year and goodnight everyone. Hmm, don’t think I’ve read anything about Long Island Ice Teas in the Bible. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2004, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544/223 "2004-01-01T02:00:48Z")
long island wasn’t created yet! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2004, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544/224 "2004-01-01T02:01:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by vanilla \* > \*\*The word really was love. > isn’t that from John 1:1? > In the beginning was the word and the word was the Lord. > Yes? > Jesus IS the WORD. > So…the bible points one to Jesus. > Yes? \*\* I like this. What did Jesus teach? Love. He taught we should not judge others lest we be judged. He taught love one another. If you believe what Jesus stood for you can’t go around condemning people to hell as if you were their judge which you are not. Oh yes, Jesus said “I judge no man.” [http://www.jesusreligion.com/](http://www.jesusreligion.com/) Love ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2004, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544/225 "2004-01-01T02:06:50Z")
Look! Another person has joined us on page 5. You just missed lynn. Lest ye be judged. Who would you be judged by then,if you were judgmental? And what would the judgment be? ---
**Author:** ![IWLN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5ac83/32.png) [@IWLN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IWLN)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2004, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544/226 "2004-01-01T02:47:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by vanilla \* > \*\*Look! > Another person has joined us on page 5. > You just missed lynn. > > Lest ye be judged. > Who would you be judged by then,if you were judgmental? > And what would the judgment be? \*\* Well funny you should ask. This is covered in the same chapter as that “narrow gate” Christians are so fond of.🙂 > [@](#): > > Matthew 7 > Judging Others > > 1 "Do not judge so that you will not be judged. > 2 "For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2004, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544/227 "2004-01-01T04:04:11Z")
I think I already posted the parts of Scripture that say that God is Love. That whoever loves knows God and that whover does not love does not know God. If you believe that Jesus was God, then Jesus was Love becaues GOD is Love. The Word was what Jesus taught. Jesus was only the vehicle. The Word is Love. If you identify Christ as identical to Love then then Christianity works just beautifully. The way to God is through Love not through dogma. This is the message of every great religion. When you degrade this message to the worship of the messenger you are worshipping an idol. Muslims understand this quite well. They never deified their prophet. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2004, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544/228 "2004-01-01T04:31:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lynn73 \* > \*\*Here are a few examples of promises or prophecies fulfilled, Diogenes: > > [http://www.messiahrevealed.org/genesis.html](http://www.messiahrevealed.org/genesis.html) > > [http://www.kensmen.com/catholic/israelverses.html](http://www.kensmen.com/catholic/israelverses.html) \*\* Don’t be lazy, **Lynn**. You can do better than posting to Christian websites. I can’t be expected to post a line by line rebuttal of everything stated on another website. Suffice it to say that most of what is cited on those pages does not represent Messianic prophesy and it certainly does not refer to Jesus. The OT expectations of the Messiah were very specific and they were not met by Jesus. What websites like yours tend to do is cherry pick certain verses or fragments of verses out of context and try to find specious cpmparisons to Jesus. The first example cited on your first link is a perfect example. God told the serpent that he would “bruise the heel of man” and hey, Jesus got nails through his heels. Never mind that Genesis was not referring to the Messiah but to “men” in general. Never mind that the serpent wasn’t Satan. Never mind that Satan had nothing to do with the crucifixion (which would contradict the whole idea that it was a voluntary action by Jesus). Most of the other stuff cited is just as lame as this. Be more specific. Don’t link to websites. Show me a specific passage which you think is a prophesy of Jesus and show me how Jesus fulfilled it. While you’re at it, please explain why (with the exception of being Jewish) Jesus did not fulfill a single explicit OT expectation for the Messiah. Where’s that temple in Jerusalem? Where’s that world peace? Why wasn’t Jesus a descendent of David? Did you know that the OT say that the Messiah will make the whole world monotheistic (actually Jewish, to be exact)? When is that going to happen? Bring it on. Show me your best cite. Give me an example of something that you think is a dead solid prediction of Jesus and I’ll show you why you’re wrong. ---
**Author:** ![IWLN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5ac83/32.png) [@IWLN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IWLN)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2004, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544/229 "2004-01-01T04:40:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > Did you know that the OT say that the Messiah will make the whole world monotheistic (actually Jewish, to be exact)? When is that going to happen? > Bring it on. Show me your best cite. Give me an example of something that you think is a dead solid prediction of Jesus and I’ll show you why you’re wrong. Psalms 22 is actually pretty impressive as far as appearing like it’s talking about Jesus. It’s only when you dig deep and find out the translation of some of the words aren’t quite as literal as one would hope. And ignore a few other things. Reading it looking for comparisons to Jesus works very well on the surface. So we all get to be Jews. I like that. That would actually be my first choice if I had to pick a religion now. Plus it’ll be fun to watch the Christians squirm.;j ---
**Author:** ![ImNotMad2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f08c70/32.png) [@ImNotMad2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ImNotMad2)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2004, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544/230 "2004-01-01T04:41:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by IWLN \* > \*\*Well funny you should ask. This is covered in the same chapter as that “narrow gate” Christians are so fond of.🙂 \*\* Jesus: “‘I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.’” (John 10:9) Jesus: “‘I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me’” (John 14:5-6). Peter: “’…Jesus Christ of Nazareth….Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.’” (Acts 4:10-12). Jesus: “‘For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son’” (John 3:17-18). Perhaps looking at the context of the whole New Testament, not just the chapter alone, makes the verses in Matthew even more clear. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2004, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544/231 "2004-01-01T04:52:00Z")
You’re right about Psalm 22. Particularly verse 16 which often mistranslates “shriveled” hands as being “pierced.” Maybe you should sit in on some UU services. UU is basically designed for people who don’t know what they are, exactly but who know they are _something_. If nothing else it has the community feeling and trappings of a church without the narrow doctrine. You don’t even have to believe in God. You hear a lot of ideas and spiritual conversation without being beat on the head with a MESSAGE. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2004, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544/232 "2004-01-01T04:53:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ImNotMad2 \* > \*\*Jesus: “‘I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.’” (John 10:9) > > Jesus: “‘I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me’” (John 14:5-6). > > Peter: “’…Jesus Christ of Nazareth….Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.’” (Acts 4:10-12). > > Jesus: “‘For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son’” (John 3:17-18). > > Perhaps looking at the context of the whole New Testament, not just the chapter alone, makes the verses in Matthew even more clear. \*\* Change the word “Jesus” to “Love” in all those verses and you have yourself a workable theology. ---
**Author:** ![ImNotMad2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f08c70/32.png) [@ImNotMad2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ImNotMad2)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2004, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544/233 "2004-01-01T04:57:49Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by IWLN_ > I guess that would make me relativistic, although I’m not familar with the term. Relativism says there is no absolute truth, that truth is subjective. > [@](#): > > Even Christianity is valid as long as your works are good. This statement contradicts itself, considering that true Christianity is based on salvation by grace through faith, not by works. Also considering that Jesus himself said he is the only way to God creates a contradiction in logic if you claim that Jesus is **a** way rather than **the** way. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2004, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544/234 "2004-01-01T05:08:27Z")
Jesus is Love. LOVE is the way. And faith IS a work. ---
**Author:** ![IWLN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5ac83/32.png) [@IWLN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IWLN)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2004, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544/235 "2004-01-01T05:11:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ImNotMad2 \* > \*\*Relativism says there is no absolute truth, that truth is subjective. > This statement contradicts itself, considering that true Christianity is based on salvation by grace through faith, not by works. Also considering that Jesus himself said he is the only way to God creates a contradiction in logic if you claim that Jesus is **a** way rather than **the** way. \*\* Okay then being a relativist might depend on whether you’re using it to define religion or G-d. There is an abosolute truth when it comes to G-d, but not to religion. Religion is a faulty, but heartfelt expression of G-d. I don’t think the doctrine matters at all, unless it is used as a hurtful weapon to exclude other religions. To me the Budhist is expressing the same thing as you are. Even the atheist who is loving his neighbor is on the same journey you are. You limit G-d when you don’t trust him to know what is in each man’s heart. That’s all he cares about. Jesus isn’t **a** way or **the** way. His message was about **the** way, though. This is not some sort of cop out or easy way I’ve decided to take. Believe me, nothing about it has been easy. I have read, thought and prayed non-stop for quite a while now. I stopped consulting the Christian church and started asking G-d for answers. It works well for me. G-d has no religious bias. ---
**Author:** ![IWLN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5ac83/32.png) [@IWLN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IWLN)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2004, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544/236 "2004-01-01T05:20:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > Maybe you should sit in on some UU services. UU is basically designed for people who don’t know what they are, exactly but who know they are _something_. > > If nothing else it has the community feeling and trappings of a church without the narrow doctrine. You don’t even have to believe in God. You hear a lot of ideas and spiritual conversation without being beat on the head with a MESSAGE. Thanks. I’d like that, but I still attend the Catholic church. My husband is a very strong Catholic and since where I go to church doesn’t matter all that much, I haven’t wanted to upset him. I haven’t even talked to him about any of this. I can worship G-d anywhere.🆒 ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2004, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544/237 "2004-01-01T05:33:44Z")
Jesus a descendant of David. Not technically, if you assume God was his biological (as it were) father. Now, some may claim Mary was a descendant of David, and Joseph was also (I’ve heard this postulated). Interesting. ---
**Author:** ![IWLN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5ac83/32.png) [@IWLN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IWLN)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2004, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544/238 "2004-01-01T05:51:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ImNotMad2 \* > \*\*Jesus: “‘I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.’” (John 10:9) > Jesus: “‘I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me’” (John 14:5-6). > Peter: “’…Jesus Christ of Nazareth….Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.’” (Acts 4:10-12). > Jesus: “‘For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son’” (John 3:17-18). > Perhaps looking at the context of the whole New Testament, not just the chapter alone, makes the verses in Matthew even more clear. \*\* My indoctrination was very thorough. I know what it says. I just don’t think the writers understood the message. At least I’m giving them the benefit of the doubt and assuming it wasn’t intentional. You commented earlier on the NT being 99% accurate to the original. I don’t know how much you’ve studied on this, but the originals had some definite challenges and descrepancies. Also, in translating, there were many words that had several meanings depending on different things. Add the fact that a lot of the scripture was written in consonants, no short vowels and long vowels were different(?) and you have a bit of a challenge. I had a friend go back and re-translate a few scriptures for me and it was amazing how different they were. There even appears to be some descrepancies on Jesus final words. Anyway, saying that the NT is 99% anything leaves that up to interpretation. I does not seem clear, to me. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2004, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544/239 "2004-01-01T05:53:43Z")
Mary wouldn’t count. It specifically has to be through the _paternal_ lineage (the son of the son of the son of…). maternal lineages don’t count when it comes to royal Jewish bloodlines (which is what the lineage of David would be). If Jesus was not the biological son of Joseph (or any other male) he can not be of the lineage of David and thus cannot be the Messiah. I suppose you could say that he _is_ the bio-son of Joseph, in which case he’s just a dude, not a God. (Christians really shot themselves in the foot with that Virgin Birth thing ;)) ---
**Author:** ![IWLN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5ac83/32.png) [@IWLN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IWLN)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2004, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544/240 "2004-01-01T05:58:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*Mary wouldn’t count. It specifically has to be through the _paternal_ lineage (the son of the son of the son of…). maternal lineages don’t count when it comes to royal Jewish bloodlines (which is what the lineage of David would be). > > If Jesus was not the biological son of Joseph (or any other male) he can not be of the lineage of David and thus cannot be the Messiah. I suppose you could say that he _is_ the bio-son of Joseph, in which case he’s just a dude, not a God. > > (Christians really shot themselves in the foot with that Virgin Birth thing ;)) \*\* I already had mine all typed up, but you said it faster. This was one of the first points I ever tried to debate with you. Uh, I lost. ☹ HAPPY NEW YEAR, GO KISS YOUR WIFE ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2004, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544/241 "2004-01-01T05:59:47Z")
> [@](#): > > **Also, in translating, there were many words that had several meanings depending on different things. Add the fact that a lot of the scripture was written in consonants, no short vowels and long vowels were different(?) and you have a bit of a challenge.** This is true of Hebrew Scripture (i.e. the OT) but not of the NT which was written entirely in Greek. Greek has vowels. Having said that, I find that reading the NT in Greek does have a different feel to it than the English translations (some of which are very good, others of which are attrocious). The _tone_ is often diffrent. Mark for instance, reads as very breezy and informal in Greek, not like ponderous scripture at all. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544.md?page=13)