# Believing in Santa.  Believing in God/Satan.

**URL:** <https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544>\
**Category:** Great Debates\
**Created:** [December 22, 2003, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544 "2003-12-22T22:47:45Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 6

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**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\
**Post date:** [December 26, 2003, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544/101 "2003-12-26T18:21:57Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by IWLN \*  
> \*\*This is not just about you, **vanilla**. You seem like a gentle spirit and wish no one any harm. But you speak harmful lies. You drive people away from G-d and spread pain throughout the world. There are so many times in my life that I had to listen to a **“Christian”** speak, at times dispassionately, about this race or this religion or this person standing in front of them going to **HELL** because they don’t **“KNOW JESUS”**. You take one little part of the Bible and turn it into some sort of cult worship. Everything anyone **knows, believes, reads, understands** about G-d is worth **nothing** in your opinion because of that one event in the Bible. You are cruel to people when you smugly tell them **“accept Jesus or die”**. You make a mockery of G-d. The idea of **ONE** person going to hell should cause you immense pain. It does me.
> 
> Tell you what. If it **is** the way you say it is, I will barter with G-d. I will convince him of my genuine sorrow for the loss of such a wonderful people and I will **beg** him to damn my soul in return for saving the Jews, because I know for a fact Jesus Christ is not their savior. I would do this and G-d knows I would. I’m sure I can get other people to give up their spot in heaven so hundreds of thousands of Muslims will not be doomed. And another one for the Budhists. Please provide a list of races and religions that require a sacrifice and I am sure there are other people who would actually give up their life, their chance and lovingly save hundreds of thousands in their place. These people exist. Their devotion to G-d and man is selfless. **How could I love G-d as much as I do and not love who he loves?** How could I love who he loves and have one moment’s peace if their souls were doomed. You probably think I’m being blaphemous or mocking, but I am not. G-d knows what’s in my heart. That’s how he will judge me. I was a Christian for forty years and I am convicted beyond a doubt that Christian’s got the message wrong. The **Word** _was_ love. \*\*

Such a beautiful and accurate post deserves to be quoted.

Here I quote myself: “GOD wrote His sacred word on the hearts of all mankind – LOVE.”  
Like to add something about believing. Action is a reflection of belief. If you say you believe in Jesus and His teachings, then steal, lie, and cheat your fellow man. This means that you don’t really believe at all, you are just spouting words, and wrongfully think those words will make you safe.

In reality you are always safe, remember who you are, God’s child.

Love

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**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\
**Post date:** [December 26, 2003, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544/102 "2003-12-26T18:34:47Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Meatros \*  
> \*\*Do you reject even religious creation type theories?
> 
> In addition, other then incredulousness, would believing in a creation type theory change your faith? Or is it just not a faith issue what-so-ever, you just fail to see how mankind _could_ know?  
> I’m still curious :D. \*\*

No creation theory, or any other theory will change my knowledge. I do not need to operate on faith, as I have seen with mine own eyes.

The near death experience taught me how important it is to live in truth as truth is known to you. To be bravely honest in everything you know. When you do this more truth is added to the truth you own. So the truth is simple, we don’t know how this universe came into being, so why spend precious time arguing about it.

The only thing that really matters is Love, not what you get, but what you give.

LOve

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**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\
**Post date:** [December 26, 2003, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544/103 "2003-12-26T18:44:40Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Meatros \*  
> \*\*Do you reject even religious creation type theories?
> 
> In addition, other then incredulousness, would believing in a creation type theory change your faith? Or is it just not a faith issue what-so-ever, you just fail to see how mankind _could_ know?  
> I’m still curious :D. \*\*

No creation theory, or any other theory will change my knowledge. I do not need to operate on faith, as I have seen with mine own eyes.

The near death experience taught me how important it is to live in truth as truth is known to you. To be bravely honest in everything you know and do. When you do this more truth is added to the truth you own. So the truth is simple, we don’t know how this universe came into being, so why spend precious time arguing about it.

The only thing that really matters is Love, not what you get, but what you give.

Love

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**Author:** ![ImNotMad2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f08c70/32.png) [@ImNotMad2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ImNotMad2)\
**Post date:** [December 26, 2003, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544/104 "2003-12-26T19:31:06Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> Quote from **lekatt**  
> …  
> Sorry, it doesn’t work that way, you will reap what you sow as everyone else does. It don’t matter what you believe, what matters is what you do. Please be kind and forgiving to others, don’t be fooled by dogma conceived of men.
> 
> Love

Just curious, **lekatt** , if you were to make up a religion, what would it be?

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**Author:** ![IWLN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5ac83/32.png) [@IWLN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IWLN)\
**Post date:** [December 26, 2003, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544/105 "2003-12-26T19:41:23Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by vanilla \*  
> I speak harmful lies.  
> Cite?  
> I tellpeople that?Smugly, even?  
> Show me when I did that.

> [@](#):
>
> by vanilla  
> Where is that in your Bible?  
> Mine says No one gets to Heaven except through Jesus.  
> Jesus died for us, he took our guilt.  
> Jesus is the ONLY way.  
> All other ways are wrong, including Islam.

The only way you can state that “Jesus is the only way,” beyond a shadow of a doubt, is to have been there or perhaps received an informational visit from G-d. It _IS_ harmful to tell someone they are going to Hell, unless they do what you recommend! It _IS_ smug to pretend you have that much specific knowledge about the status of the well-being of their soul! You are not an authority on any of this. You are merely repeating what you have been taught, with no way of verifying whether your teaching is true or false. Since it is contrary to a loving G-d, you would have to prove that it’s true. The Bible is not proof, unless you can prove that G-d wrote it, with no human influence added.

> [@](#):
>
> You know for a FACT Jesus is not their savior.  
> Well, lets see those FACTS.

Well I can re-quote all of the previous verses used by yourself and your fellow Christians, but that seems pointless. The Jews do not believe Christ was the Messiah, therefore they reject him. By your standards, hey it’s off to hell they go. Forget about the promise G-d made them in the OT, because Jesus came along and due to a small technicality, G-d isn’t going to honor his previous promises. NT, new book, new rules. Too bad.

**Vanilla** , it’s sad to see you completely missed my point. I wasn’t even trying to say that you should not be a Christian. I can see how important that is to you. Only that you should leave a little room for compassion and even the possibility that maybe G-d did not construct this plan that is guaranteed to fail to provide salvation for most people. I don’t pretend to know everything, but it is obvious that the meaning behind Jesus’ sacrifice was distorted, either deliberately or in error. Or the NT is not divinely inspired. I don’t pretend to know which, but I know that the other option, that G-d set us up to fail is not true. I have been in G-d’s presence and feel his presence in me. The only two emotions I have truly felt from him were infinite love and also sorrow. He is loving and compassionate. We should be too.

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**Author:** ![IWLN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5ac83/32.png) [@IWLN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IWLN)\
**Post date:** [December 26, 2003, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544/106 "2003-12-26T19:42:54Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by ImNotMad2 \*  
> \*\*Just curious, **lekatt** , if you were to make up a religion, what would it be? \*\*

I think we should consult with G-d on the next one and quit making up our own. 😉

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**Author:** ![Freyr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/freyr/32/5763_2.png) [@Freyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freyr)\
**Post date:** [December 26, 2003, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544/107 "2003-12-26T20:25:17Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by IWLN \*  
> \*\*The only way you can state that “Jesus is the only way,” beyond a shadow of a doubt, is to have been there or perhaps received an informational visit from G-d. It _IS_ harmful to tell someone they are going to Hell, unless they do what you recommend! It _IS_ smug to pretend you have that much specific knowledge about the status of the well-being of their soul! You are not an authority on any of this. You are merely repeating what you have been taught, with no way of verifying whether your teaching is true or false. Since it is contrary to a loving G-d, you would have to prove that it’s true. The Bible is not proof, unless you can prove that G-d wrote it, with no human influence added.  
> \*\*

Well spoken!

I wish there was some way that the many Christians who project this smarmy smugness could see how others are perceiving them and therefore get an idea why they and Christianity in general are received with such hostility.

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**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\
**Post date:** [December 26, 2003, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544/108 "2003-12-26T21:44:19Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by ImNotMad2 \*  
> \*\*Just curious, **lekatt** , if you were to make up a religion, what would it be? \*\*

No chance at all of me making up another religion. They tend to become self serving and miss the mark altogether.

It is simple, God is Love.

Spiritual law is you will get back what you put out. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Ye will reap what you sow.

There is no justice more fair than this, and it does work. Check out your life and where you’re at, know that the decisions you have made in the past put you there. Want a good life? Make good honest decisions.  
Love

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**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\
**Post date:** [December 26, 2003, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544/109 "2003-12-26T23:34:11Z")

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ah,but I’ve never told anyone they were going to hell unless they believed what i do.

When Jesus returns,the Jews will recognize Him as their savior (finally) so…how is that a problem?  
He keeps His covenants.

Also,it isNOT harmful to tell someone they are going to Hell (or on their way (AC/DC!)  
Unless you think its harmful to tell someone to get out of the street because a car is heading for them.

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**Author:** ![GRIZZBAR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f19dbf/32.png) [@GRIZZBAR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GRIZZBAR)\
**Post date:** [December 27, 2003, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544/110 "2003-12-27T03:54:41Z")

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Gawd, Jesus, Buddah, Jehovah, Mohammed, Allah, etc., etc…  
Same G-d, different religon. Santa Claus, however, is a slightly different story. Or, is it? A belief system based on an unseen kindly old fat man in a red suit with miraculous powers of flight and spatial control, and with the power to talk to the animals, and to know and see all, and judge those seen to be bad or good by way of a really big list? Now, THAT’S ENTERTAINMENT! I will go on the record and say that the name “Santa Claus” is an extrapolation of the original, “St. Nicolas” of European fame. It seems that some people overheard a Finnish newspaperman talking about Saint Nick and misspoke his pronunciation. “Santa Nicholas” was shortened to “Santa Claus” in more modern times. Or, Jolly Old Saint Nick, the original, could be, as Earl R. Dingman described him in his, “Another Glass of Egg Nog… 'Some say St. Nicholas was a 4th century Bishop. It’s also believed the Christian church made up this person to help spread the fable (Hagios Nikolaos or St. Nicholas, of Myra, the patron Saint of children and sailors who loved children and threw anonymous gifts into the open windows of any home where children lived). '” Indeed. Any way you slice it, it doesn’t really matter what your belief system is, or how many times you see (H)is likeness, if you do believe that is all (H)e asks… My question is this: Who is St. Nick the Patron Saint of, anyway? Oh, that’s easy! The Patron Saint of Shopkeepers and Toy Store Owners everywhere!

Quote the bulldog: “My mind is made up - don’t confuse me with the facts!”

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**Author:** ![IWLN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5ac83/32.png) [@IWLN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IWLN)\
**Post date:** [December 27, 2003, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544/111 "2003-12-27T04:57:25Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by vanilla \*  
> ah,but I’ve never told anyone they were going to hell unless they believed what i do.

Yes, you pretty much did. Someone who won’t be saved, will be lost. And you agreed with **lynn73** who actually speaks of people being damned.

> [@](#):
>
> When Jesus returns,the Jews will recognize Him as their savior (finally) so…how is that a problem?  
> He keeps His covenants.

How do you know this? Does this apply to the Muslims too, or only the ones he made the covenant with? Can you cite in the Bible where it says that “Jesus is the only way” except for?

> [@](#):
>
> Also,it isNOT harmful to tell someone they are going to Hell (or on their way (AC/DC!)  
> Unless you think its harmful to tell someone to get out of the street because a car is heading for them.

I would agree with you, except you have only heard a story that the car is headed for them. You don’t even know if it’s true. Also, since the driver of that car is someone they have faith in, I think it’s more likely he will just pick them up, rather than run them down. That’s called having faith.

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**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\
**Post date:** [December 27, 2003, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544/112 "2003-12-27T05:15:55Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by lekatt \*  
> \*\*No chance at all of me making up another religion. They tend to become self serving and miss the mark altogether.
> 
> It is simple, God is Love.
> 
> Spiritual law is you will get back what you put out. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Ye will reap what you sow.
> 
> There is no justice more fair than this, and it does work. Check out your life and where you’re at, know that the decisions you have made in the past put you there. Want a good life? Make good honest decisions.  
> Love \*\*

You know, **lekatt** , I might be one of those skeptics that bother you so much but I have to say I have no problem at all with your philosphy. It’s consistent, it’s clean. it’s simple and it’s heartfelt.

Good on you for that. 🙂

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**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\
**Post date:** [December 27, 2003, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544/113 "2003-12-27T17:09:33Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \*  
> \*\*You know, **lekatt** , I might be one of those skeptics that bother you so much but I have to say I have no problem at all with your philosphy. It’s consistent, it’s clean. it’s simple and it’s heartfelt.
> 
> Good on you for that. 🙂 \*\*

Thank you very much.

All of us are connected at our inner source of love.

Love

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**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\
**Post date:** [December 27, 2003, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544/114 "2003-12-27T20:49:52Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> Yes, you pretty much did. Someone who won’t be saved, will be lost. And you agreed with lynn73 who actually speaks of people being damned.

I spoke of it because the Bible speaks of it. It’s not something I made up. If you believe the Bible is God’s word and believe what it says, then you accept it. If you don’t, you don’t. As I’ve said in the past, we have to come to God on His terms, not ours or what we think they ought to be. He’s God, we’re not. And love isn’t the only part of His nature, a reading of the whole Bible will reveal that. We can either accept Him as He’s revealed Himself to us in His word or we can reject Him because He’s not the kind of God we think he ought to be. But I wouldn’t doubt His love just because a sacrifice had to be made. He reconciled His love for humanity with his wrath toward sin at Calvary, that’s love. It’s now up to each individual what to do with that. He won’t force anyone. And to me, not accepting Christ as Savior just because we don’t like the fact that God requires the shedding of blood or because we think He ought to just forgive us with no repentence on our part and accepting what He’s provided, is like cutting off one’s nose to spite one’s face. Like saying to God “you accept me as I am, sin and all, and to blankey blank with accepting Christ. I’d rather go to hell.” God will honor that decision.

Peace.

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**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\
**Post date:** [December 27, 2003, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544/115 "2003-12-27T23:53:24Z")

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People think God is all love and no justice.  
I suppose they think all real life judges are mean when they sentence people.  
Just is just; we are all guilty.  
God is even a Better judge, He purposely gave His son the sentence we were supposed to have, so we could go free forever.  
**THAT** , my dear people, is LOVE.

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**Author:** ![IWLN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5ac83/32.png) [@IWLN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IWLN)\
**Post date:** [December 28, 2003, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544/116 "2003-12-28T03:22:04Z")

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_Witness Alert_ Sorry.☹

> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by vanilla \*  
> \*\*People think God is all love and no justice.  
> I suppose they think all real life judges are mean when they sentence people.  
> Just is just; we are all guilty.  
> God is even a Better judge, He purposely gave His son the sentence we were supposed to have, so we could go free forever.  
> **THAT** , my dear people, is LOVE. \*\*

I’m sure I’ve said some of this before, but I’m compelled to try one more time, so here it is. I don’t know if anyone but Christians think of G-d in this odd way. This twisted version of love that is based on a reward and punishment system. According to your story, G-d created everything. He created an imperfect man, only so we could either do what we are supposed to, or be damned eternally. He actually created guilt and sin. He set himself up as our judge and is judging us for the traits and sins he intentionally created in us. Since all of this was part of his plan and he knows exactly how it’s going to go, why act like there is some sort of choice? You don’t have one. You only think you do. Enter Jesus which is supposed to be our ticket out of hell. The only thing is, G-d set it up where only a minority could actually receive this salvation. G-d gave Jesus the sentence we were supposed to have, which incidentally that first sentence was also created by him. What went wrong that G-d needed to save man from himself? It doesn’t sound much like a loving G-d’s plan, does it?

When I was a Christian, and believe me it sounds odd to hear myself put this in the past tense, I always felt like we had somehow got the story wrong. But I was taught to feel guilt at questioning any of this. I have never doubted G-d, just religion’s interpretation of him. I believe in this life, everything we’re going through has a purpose. I don’t believe that purpose is to pass or fail. I believe that purpose is to grow, to learn, to experience; to become a more complete soul. And to return to G-d with a full and deep range of love, compassion and the ability to understand selfless sacrifice and humility. I don’t think I’m better than anyone else, deserve more than anyone else and I don’t think there will ever be a time that I can’t learn more and do better. I don’t fear G-d, although I respect him beyond all else. I can’t bring myself to fear him when I feel the depth of his love.

**lynn73 & vanilla** I don’t understand why you don’t think you have more to learn. Why you think a book filled with words is the definition of why you’re here. You cause G-d sorrow when you’re not compassionate to those he loves as much as he loves you. You are so focused on what that book says that you forget to live how that book tells you to. I am sure that G-d’s intent with the Bible was not to influence people to the point that they are so inflexible, so rigid in their beliefs, that they are unable to communicate in a successful way, with non-believers. It doesn’t matter if your fellow Christians give you a high five for correct content and delivery. It’s how the people you are supposed to be trying to reach percieve you. I wonder sometimes if you think I’m something evil sent your way to test your faith or if you ever realize that G-d is always present and is always sending other people your way, to try and get through the hardness you’ve become? I do have my faults, am pretty sure I’m not evil and as far as I know, we’re still on the same side, I think. Sort of. :rolleyes:

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**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\
**Post date:** [December 28, 2003, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544/117 "2003-12-28T03:40:00Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by IWLN \*  
> \*\* He created an imperfect man, only so we could either do what we are supposed to, or be damned eternally.
> 
> You cause G-d sorrow when you’re not compassionate to those he loves as much as he loves you. , to try and get through the hardness you’ve become? \*\*

God gave man free will.He didn’t have to mess up.

I am compassionate.  
Do you have proof otherwise?  
Do you know me?

I am not hardness.

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**Author:** ![IWLN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5ac83/32.png) [@IWLN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IWLN)\
**Post date:** [December 28, 2003, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544/118 "2003-12-28T04:16:19Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by vanilla \*  
> God gave man free will.He didn’t have to mess up.

G-d created man to mess up. There is no man without sin. Free will when it comes to not sinning is an illusion. There has been a 100% failure rate at _not sinning_. Man **had** to mess up. It was G-d’s will that he mess up. Find me a human who has not sinned and I will agree that we have free will.

> [@](#):
>
> I am compassionate.  
> Do you have proof otherwise?  
> Do you know me?
> 
> I am not hardness.

I believe you probably are compassionate and not hard. But what you portray, what other people see, is you casually, calmly referring to most of the world’s eternal damnation. It sounds cold-hearted and almost smug to me and have seen others comment on it. Didn’t you notice in the Pagan Heaven thread that a Christian Heaven was not a popular concept? It doen’t matter how you really are **vanilla** , not on this forum. It only matters what you say and how you say it. Again, it’s obvious that your church is really important to you and I’m not trying to say you shouldn’t be a Christian. All I wish for you, is that you would stop and consider that G-d is wiser than the Christian religion gives him credit for and consider that his plan is probably a lot better than the one you believe he has.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\
**Post date:** [December 28, 2003, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544/119 "2003-12-28T04:22:43Z")

</div>

I have never seen anyone comment on here about me being cold or smug.  
Have I missed these posts?  
Never saw any.

So everyone goes to Heaven cause God is so loving.  
What of those who don’twant to go?  
If that were true, Jesus died for nothing (and He knew why he chose to die also).  
Must sleep now.  
Back tomorrow.  
Lynn can come by and comment also,I would hope.  
She is compassionate and not hard hearted.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![IWLN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5ac83/32.png) [@IWLN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IWLN)\
**Post date:** [December 28, 2003, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544/120 "2003-12-28T08:05:13Z")

</div>

> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by vanilla \*  
> I have never seen anyone comment on here about me being cold or smug.  
> Have I missed these posts?  
> Never saw any.

I’m not trying to insult you in any way. I don’t think you have anything but good intentions. This is about Christianity’s message. But don’t you ever notice the negative response. There don’t seem to be many people thanking you for sharing or appreciating it much. I’m sure there are many people who just don’t bother to complain anymore, too. I went to two threads so I could give you some examples of what is said after your witness. See below:

> [@](#):
>
> \<No misdeed in this world, no matter how heinous, justifies an endless eternity of agonizing punishment. Anyone who would support such a belief is a sadist of the first order.  
> \<Heaven as an eternity-long church service. That’s certainly my definition of Hell.  
> \<y’know, descriptions of the Christian afterlife is one of the things that drove me away from my fundie background.  
> \<Did you ever think that God seems to have some serious self-esteem issues?  
> \<I couldn’t agree more. If God is like so many paint him, so judgmental that he’d doom someone to Hell for believe in say, evolution for example, then he’s a sadistic bastard who delights in torturing others.  
> \<I grew up trying to believe this idea and twisting myself in knots trying to perceive it as a good thing. But the longer I’m away from this belief system, the uglier it seems when I come across it again. Sin, sacrifice, punishment, hell… Who wants to live for all eternity with a god associated with all that bloody mess?  
> \<All I can say is that the heaven the poster above me posits will be inhabited by far too few people for my taste.  
> \<Not only does it have too few people, Siege, it’s also not a place I would care to go even if I were welcome.  
> \<I dunno about anyone else, this kind of rationale always sounded a bit too much like “Caesar can do no wrong,” for my tastes.  
> \<And for Him to throw me into a Pit because I will not kiss ass of people who are cruel and hateful, well, I’m sorry. That FEELS wrong to me.  
> \<Yeah, God sends his word…through people who spit on others and call people foul and degenerate and traitors when they are kind and good. I have no problem with God…but some of his followers piss me off big time.  
> \<Supposedly, God is perfect good. If we can find even ONE instance in which he did something evil, we disprove the perfect good attribute. But when we do find something that looks pretty evil to us, it’s explained away by saying that God is Good, therefore all God does is Good, even if it looks Evil to us poor, imperfect creatures.  
> \<I was replying to the poster above me,who is rather rabid about his dislike of God.  
> \<IWLN is right. When non-believers are confronted with obviously and demonstrably bogus assertions it just makes us roll our eyes. Faith has to be reconciled with reason if you want to spread it to others.  
> \<I NEVER said I don’t agree with God. I don’t agree with the BIBLE. And yes, there is a difference. The Bible is not God.  
> \<I said that the God PORTRAYED BY SOME is a sadistic bastard. But I don’t believe that God is like that.  
> \<Specifically, I tire of people who decry god’s love and mercy as good, yet refuse to take into account eternal fire and torment upon where the gaits of entry are wide.  
> \<Does God condone the torture of evil people, after they die?  
> \<I like to think that anything that condones torture is wrong, and if it does so in full knowledge of what it does, then it is evil.  
> \<I will not worship anything that is evil. So my worship of God is conditional on that He is not a torturer. My beleif is that God is not a torturer and is not Evil, and I think that belief requires me to reject parts of the bible as errors or lies.

I would conclude from even just a few of these statements that my witness wasn’t working and evaluate what would be necessary to be more effective. I didn’t have to look very hard for these and I’m sure I could come up with many more. I came across many of your statements that were so matter of fact and emotionless about people _not_ being saved. If I believed what you are saying and had to deliver this message to people, it certainly would be emotional. You don’t calmly state, “look out that car is going to hit you.” There’s usually a little panic on the part of the witness in that case. I don’t believe your message is strictly true, but it should still be compassionate and loving. I’m not even denying G-d has a little wrath thing going. But I do know he hates the sin and not the sinner.

> [@](#):
>
> So everyone goes to Heaven cause God is so loving.  
> What of those who don’twant to go?  
> If that were true, Jesus died for nothing (and He knew why he chose to die also).

I rather doubt that any one, given the right information and circustances would pass up eternal life. As it stands though, many people don’t want to spend eternal life with a god that they see as less moral than they are. Although I will admit to having doubts about the NT and Jesus dying for our sins; what I used to feel sure was true is that yes, he died for our sins, but the message was a symbolic message of love and sacrifice. His actual death wasn’t the point and didn’t give you a “get out of Hell” card. It was his life and his sacrifice you were supposed to understand as a pure example. One to try and live by.

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