# Believing in Santa. Believing in God/Satan. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 22, 2003, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544 "2003-12-22T22:47:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2003, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544/121 "2003-12-28T14:45:45Z")
Jesus died because He was politically and religiously incorrect. The Romans though He might form an army and lead the Jewish people in revolt against Rome. (Not a chance.) The religious leaders of the day thought He would undermine their authority with His erroneous, to them, teachings. So they falsely accused Him and had Him put to death. None of this had anything to do with “dying for our sins.” Dying for our sins is purely a religious doctrine. God does not kill His children. Who would Jesus have been sacrified to? God? So God sacrificed Himself (Jesus) to Himself (God.) This is not believable in any logical sense, but doctrine has never been known to be logical. “know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” God is love, unconditional love, just as Jesus taught. Love one another, do not judge others, go the second mile in helping others. No one is going to burn eternally in some fanticized hell, because God does not love them and puts them there. Please don’t try to push that ignorant notion that God loves, but still burns people up. God loves you, everyone, more than you can ever realize, and holds you safe and secure in His love. Love ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2003, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544/122 "2003-12-28T15:57:26Z")
ILWN, Of course the message isn’t well received. it never will be! Who wants to think theres anything wrong or sinful about themselves? My comments on lekatt’s mistakes are: Jesus chose to die, He was out sacrifice,or haven’t i said that enough? Maybe he just doesn’t want to hear… ---
**Author:** ![IWLN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5ac83/32.png) [@IWLN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IWLN)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2003, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544/123 "2003-12-28T16:05:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lekatt \* > Jesus died because He was politically and religiously incorrect. > The Romans though He might form an army and lead the Jewish people in revolt against Rome. (Not a chance.) The religious leaders of the day thought He would undermine their authority with His erroneous, to them, teachings. So they falsely accused Him and had Him put to death. None of this had anything to do with “dying for our sins.” Dying for our sins is purely a religious doctrine. > > God does not kill His children. Who would Jesus have been sacrified to? God? So God sacrificed Himself (Jesus) to Himself (God.) > > This is not believable in any logical sense, but doctrine has never been known to be logical. Thanks **lekatt** for clarifying that. I still have some left over phantom Christian superstition/angst, that makes it hard to actually deny the Christian’s message of Christ as the messiah. I can’t quite say it in a complete sentence yet. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![IWLN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5ac83/32.png) [@IWLN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IWLN)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2003, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544/124 "2003-12-28T16:18:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by vanilla \* > Of course the message isn’t well received. > it never will be! > Who wants to think theres anything wrong or sinful about themselves? > My comments on lekatt’s mistakes are: > Jesus chose to die, He was out sacrifice,or haven’t i said that enough? > Maybe he just doesn’t want to hear… **vanilla** , That is just too ridiculous. I have never met anyone who claimed they were perfect or wouldn’t admit that they do wrong. That isn’t even remotely an issue. The real issues, which you never addressed and I’m getting it now, never will, are things like how can it be fair that so few actually get to know Jesus and still it’s a wise, loving plan? What about the Muslims who even if they hear of Jesus, see it as a part of our faith and unacceptable to them? Substitute any non-Christian into that question. Why wouldn’t a message of salvation be well received? The people that made the negative comments about Christianity are I’m sure mostly good, decent, loving people who think your G-d doesn’t seem moral enough. In a debate, you should adress questions and issues and not just repeat the same pre-programmed Christian Mantra over and over. If you have no answers or explanations, just say so and refuse to debate. You’re using our exchange simply to keep airing that sad excuse for a witness. Too bad. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2003, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544/125 "2003-12-28T16:25:13Z")
God wants everyone to come to salvation. Even Muslims have been known to do so! I see you don’t want to debate either, just put medown. I love you. Believe what you want. ---
**Author:** ![IWLN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5ac83/32.png) [@IWLN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IWLN)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2003, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544/126 "2003-12-28T16:52:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by vanilla \* > \*\*God wants everyone to come to salvation. > Even Muslims have been known to do so! > I see you don’t want to debate either, just put medown. > I love you. > Believe what you want. \*\* I’m sorry. I wasn’t trying to put you down. Be happy and G-d bless you. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2003, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544/127 "2003-12-28T17:05:06Z")
You spell God G-d. Doesn’t that mean you are Jewish? yet you said you used to be a christian. Yes? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![IWLN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5ac83/32.png) [@IWLN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IWLN)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2003, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544/128 "2003-12-28T17:21:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by vanilla \* > \*\*You spell God G-d. > Doesn’t that mean you are Jewish? > yet you said you used to be a christian. > Yes? > 😕 \*\* No. But a Jewish person explained that they did that out of respect for the sacred name of G-d and I thought it would be a good reminder to me that I, uh…tend to be a little irreverent at times and need to stop. ☹ I have a deep respect for the Jewish faith and actually haven’t found anything I disagree with in what small amount I know of them. Again, I’m sorry I pressed you for answers you didn’t feel like you could give. Maybe **lynn73** will answer some of them. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2003, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544/129 "2003-12-28T17:23:45Z")
🙂 ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2003, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544/130 "2003-12-28T21:20:46Z")
I sincerely doubt if I can answer all your questions to your satisfaction. I’m not that great at it and I’ve tried to explain myself to people here before. You don’t understand why vanilla and I stand on the word of God and aren’t open to new things or new “spiritual truths.” Of course, we’re not open to anything that contradicts what God says, that’s a given. We’re Christians, therefore we believe what the Bible says, that’s all there is to it. Of course, I don’t want to speak too much for vanilla, I might not represent her correctly. For Lekatt: **Mt 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.** I wish you’d stop telling people Jesus didnt die for our sins, that he just died because he was religiously and politically incorrect. As shown in the above Scripture, Jesus disagrees with you. It’s the very reason He came to this earth. I’m afraid you’re going to feel awful someday that you’ve led many people away from the only way of salvation because you told them it wasn’t necessary. I shudder to think of it, and will continue praying for you. Anyone here that believes the Bible is God’s word, please read what it says as compared to what Lekatt says. It doesn’t match. ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2003, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544/131 "2003-12-28T21:37:40Z")
P.S. If you don’t overwhelm me and ask me one or two questions, I might try to answer whenever I get back here but my answers might me “I don’t know.” ---
**Author:** ![IWLN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5ac83/32.png) [@IWLN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IWLN)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2003, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544/132 "2003-12-29T00:44:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lynn73 \* > I spoke of it because the Bible speaks of it. It’s not something I made up. If you believe the Bible is God’s word and believe what it says, then you accept it. If you don’t, you don’t. As I’ve said in the past, we have to come to God on His terms, not ours or what we think they ought to be. He’s God, we’re not. And love isn’t the only part of His nature, a reading of the whole Bible will reveal that. We can either accept Him as He’s revealed Himself to us in His word or we can reject Him because He’s not the kind of God we think he ought to be. But I wouldn’t doubt His love just because a sacrifice had to be made. He reconciled His love for humanity with his wrath toward sin at Calvary, that’s love. Well I don’t agree that a sacrifice **had** to be made. G-d chose that, if it really happened; it wasn’t some sad decision he was forced to make. We’re not going to agree on that, so I’ll leave it alone now. What I’d like to know, you referred to reading the _whole Bible_ to reveal G-d’s nature. How does Christianity explain that Jesus doesn’t meet the requirements laid out for fulfilling the prophecy of the messiah? When I was a Christian, this was basically ignored, but since I’m still fairly confident the OT is the word of G-d, I’ve been reading it more. I will admit a lot of this is new for me, never covered in my old religion, but it seems pretty clear. Why do you think Jesus is the messiah when it is clearly contradicted by the Old Testament? Is this part of the OT, not the word of G-d? How does your church explain this to you? This is not a challenge. I am completely puzzled and open to explanation. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2003, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544/133 "2003-12-29T00:53:44Z")
Yes, **lynn73** you spoke for me. In fact,you said it better than I. :o Jesus did fill the requirements of the Messaih. He will return and be King over all the Earth and Jerusalem; His people. Thats in the bible too. Let lynn look it up! (My bible is not with me right now) ---
**Author:** ![IWLN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5ac83/32.png) [@IWLN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IWLN)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2003, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544/134 "2003-12-29T00:59:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by vanilla \* > \*\*Yes, **lynn73** you spoke for me. > In fact,you said it better than I. > :o > > Jesus did fill the requirements of the Messaih. > He will return and be King over all the Earth and Jerusalem; His people. > Thats in the bible too. > Let lynn look it up! (My bible is not with me right now) \*\* He did not, did not! Okay.🆒 ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2003, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544/135 "2003-12-29T02:29:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lynn73 \* > \*\*I sincerely doubt if I can answer all your questions to your satisfaction. I’m not that great at it and I’ve tried to explain myself to people here before. You don’t understand why vanilla and I stand on the word of God and aren’t open to new things or new “spiritual truths.” Of course, we’re not open to anything that contradicts what God says, that’s a given. We’re Christians, therefore we believe what the Bible says, that’s all there is to it. Of course, I don’t want to speak too much for vanilla, I might not represent her correctly. > For Lekatt: > > **Mt 26:28 > For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.** > > I wish you’d stop telling people Jesus didnt die for our sins, that he just died because he was religiously and politically incorrect. As shown in the above Scripture, Jesus disagrees with you. It’s the very reason He came to this earth. I’m afraid you’re going to feel awful someday that you’ve led many people away from the only way of salvation because you told them it wasn’t necessary. I shudder to think of it, and will continue praying for you. > > Anyone here that believes the Bible is God’s word, please read what it says as compared to what Lekatt says. It doesn’t match. \*\* I think you will not listen to anything different because you are terrified of God. Afraid to move one inch from your doctrine, we have been through this many times and it is just interpretation of the Bible that causes the differences between the Christian religions, thousands of them. Jesus says to love one another, to not judge others, to mind your own business, to help everyone. This is the part of the Bible estranged from Christian thought in churches today. You can not tell others they are going to hell and at the same time not judge them. Please don’t shudder or fear for me, I know that is a ploy designed to induce fear, I have been in God’s presence and seen, felt, and understood His eternal love for me and everyone else on this planet earth. I have no, repeat, no, fear of God God turns no one away, all can go to Him in peace and love. After all, it may be you who discovers the falseness of your preaching. Honor God at all times by honoring His children, the only appropriate emotion in the presense of God is awe. Unless you have been there you don’t really know just how awesome this can be. You will never forget it. Love ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2003, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544/136 "2003-12-29T02:35:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lekatt \* > \*\*I think you will not listen to anything different because you are terrified of God. You can not tell others they are going to hell and at the same time not judge them. > > I have no fear of God. > > God turns no one away, all can go to Him in peace and love. > > After all, it may be you who discovers the falseness of your preaching. > > in the presense of God is awe. > Unless you have been there \*\* She is not terrified of God,she lovesHim. You are a liar. The word of God says “The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom”. She is preaching truth, your "experience"is false. She has been in the presence of the Lord,do you have proof she hasn’t? God does turn some away, unless you have a different word of God,which you don’t. Truth, vanilla ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2003, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544/137 "2003-12-29T02:39:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by IWLN \* > \*\*Thanks **lekatt** for clarifying that. I still have some left over phantom Christian superstition/angst, that makes it hard to actually deny the Christian’s message of Christ as the messiah. I can’t quite say it in a complete sentence yet. ☹ \*\* Understandable. The fear of God is pressed hard into our young impressionable minds. Even after seeing the insanity of fearing God, it was a while before the feelings left. That’s why I recommend choosing love in all things. Focus on learning to love. Love ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2003, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544/138 "2003-12-29T02:51:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by vanilla \* > \*\*She is not terrified of God,she lovesHim. > You are a liar. > > The word of God says “The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom”. > > She is preaching truth, your "experience"is false. > > She has been in the presence of the Lord,do you have proof she hasn’t? > > God does turn some away, unless you have a different word of God,which you don’t. > > Truth, vanilla \*\* The Bible was not written by God. It was written by men, some 44 of them more or less, who generally didn’t agree with one another about God. Jesus said the “Kingdom of God lies within you.” All you need to know about life, you have within you. If you don’t look in the right place, you will never find God. Yes, and I don’t think you are supposed to call people names. God is Love. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2003, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544/139 "2003-12-29T02:55:51Z")
The Bible was dictated by God. You lied. You said something about lynn that you cannot prove is true. Its your OPINION. ---
**Author:** ![IWLN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5ac83/32.png) [@IWLN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IWLN)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2003, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544/140 "2003-12-29T03:18:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by vanilla \* > \*\*The Bible was dictated by God. > You lied. > You said something about lynn that you cannot prove is true. > Its your OPINION. \*\* This doesn’t do any good. Let **lynn** defend herself if she wants to. **lynn** said that **lekatt** was leading people away from G-d. That is **lynn’s** opinion. Since none of us can **prove** to one another that what we say is true, opinion is all we have. Don’t let it upset you or reduce you to name calling.☹ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544.md?page=8)