# Believing in Santa. Believing in God/Satan. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 22, 2003, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544 "2003-12-22T22:47:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2003, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544/141 "2003-12-29T03:37:30Z")
What he said was not provably true. It was an opinion;wasn’t stated as such. He doesn’t want to hear what we have to say,the Bible is the word of God. Jesus died for our sins. Simple,if you ask me. IMHO. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2003, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544/143 "2003-12-29T03:50:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by vive ut vivas \* > \*\*or rap at seances - all the same kind of fakerery to play with or mess with the gullible. \*\* Whats wrong with rapping at a seance? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![IWLN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5ac83/32.png) [@IWLN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IWLN)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2003, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544/144 "2003-12-29T04:11:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by vanilla \* > \*\*What he said was not provably true. > It was an opinion;wasn’t stated as such. > He doesn’t want to hear what we have to say,the Bible is the word of God. > Jesus died for our sins. > Simple,if you ask me. > IMHO. > 🙂 \*\* It’s not simple. If you’re going by the Bible, there’s “proof” in the OT that Jesus was not the messiah and in the NT, it says he was. It’s understandable that people would not agree on this. **lekatt** had a personal experience with G-d and I actually did too. You’re saying that **lynn** has been in the presence of G-d, but that **lekatt’s** experience is false. I don’t understand how you can know that. What I know is it changes you and those changes are obvious by how you treat those that G-d loves. I would believe **lekatt** by the love in his words, rather than **lynn** with all the judgment in hers. That’s my opinion, only from what G-d and life have taught me. **vive ut vivas** Thanks for dropping by.:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![IWLN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5ac83/32.png) [@IWLN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IWLN)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2003, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544/145 "2003-12-29T04:13:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lekatt \* > Understandable. The fear of God is pressed hard into our young impressionable minds. Even after seeing the insanity of fearing God, it was a while before the feelings left. That’s why I recommend choosing love in all things. Focus on learning to love. I don’t have _any_ fear of G-d at all. How could I? But the enormous love and respect I have makes me want to always be sure I’m speaking the truth. Love 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2003, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544/146 "2003-12-29T13:19:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by vanilla \* > \*\*Yes, **lynn73** you spoke for me. > In fact,you said it better than I. > :o > > Jesus did fill the requirements of the Messaih. > He will return and be King over all the Earth and Jerusalem; His people. > Thats in the bible too. > Let lynn look it up! (My bible is not with me right now) \*\* I’m at work right now so afraid I don’t have a lot of time to look things up. Why doesn’t Jesus qualify to be the Messiah? I think maybe it’s because the Jews expected Him to come the first time the way He’s going to come the second time. They wanted someone to come and conquer the Romans and deliver them from their hard rule and that’s what they expected so many of them didn’t recognize him but many did. The first believers were Jews, you know. But sin had to be taken care of first. The blood of bulls and goats that the Jews were sacrificing could only cover the sin and they had to keep doing it over and over. The sacrifice of Jesus took care of it once and for all. Let’s see I seem to remember a Scripture saying “your King will come to you meek and lowly, riding upon an ass.” I don’t have time to look it up. There are clues in the Old Testament, I think, alluding to Jesus’ suffering on the cross. Read Psalm 22, I beleive it is and Isaiah 53. I think I got that right. He was and is the Messiah, most of them simply didn’t recognize him or understand the OT Scriptures about him, they were looking for a conquerer, a Lion not a Lamb. Anyway, I’m out of time. I will never agree with Lekatt that God isn’t the Author of the Bible. Of course, that’s my opinion and I know everyone doesn’t share it nor can I or vanilla prove it to anyone. Check out the link in my sig line, that may help clarify where I’m coming from even if you don’t agree with it. ---
**Author:** ![IWLN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5ac83/32.png) [@IWLN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IWLN)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2003, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544/147 "2003-12-30T07:08:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lynn73 \* > There are clues in the Old Testament, I think, alluding to Jesus’ suffering on the cross. Read Psalm 22, I beleive it is and Isaiah 53. I think I got that right. He was and is the Messiah, most of them simply didn’t recognize him or understand the OT Scriptures about him, they were looking for a conquerer, a Lion not a Lamb. Thanks **lynn** for the references. I’ve been reading and comparing all day. I can see why you think what you do and I can also see why the Jewish faith has their interpretation. No matter what the answer is, I still have a tough time with how many people don’t stand a chance if Christianity is correct. Anyway, I’ll read more and at least try to understand where you’re coming from. I will admit that a lot of my thinking and feeling comes from my heart, not my head. But I continue to believe that’s the way G-d intended us to be. ---
**Author:** ![Tangent](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tangent/32/3098_2.png) [@Tangent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tangent)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2003, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544/148 "2003-12-30T08:50:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ImNotMad2 \* > \*\*Just curious, **lekatt** , if you were to make up a religion, what would it be? \*\* > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by IWLN \* > **I think we should consult with G-d on the next one and quit making up our own.** > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lekatt \* > **No chance at all of me making up another religion. They tend to become self serving and miss the mark altogether.** > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lekatt \* > **Spiritual law is you will get back what you put out. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction… All of us are connected at our inner source of love… All you need to know about life, you have within you. If you don’t look in the right place, you will never find God.** No chance at all of you making up another religion? In a way, isn’t that exactly what you’re doing, **lekatt**? You act as though you have all the answers and you tell everyone that disagrees with you that they are wrong. This is what all religions do. Do you **all** realize that as confident and secure and “enlightened” as you feel about your beliefs, everyone else is just as certain about their own religions? That even among followers of a specific religion, there are often wildly varying interpretations of the “truth?” As a result, many people are choosing to define their religious beliefs in more and more general terms. Why try to defend improbable religious histories and questionable behavioral laws when you can just do away with all that and simply say “God is love and love is everything?” Forget all that stuff about Moses, Jesus, Allah, Muhammed, Vishnu, whomever. **Lekatt** is a man ahead of his time–at some point in the future all churches may become desperately minimalist just to retain their membership. Basically, none of us **know** exactly how we got here or why we are here or if there even _is_ a why. And people fear the unknown. Religion and the vague “spirituality” preached by some of you here are a response to this fear. ---
**Author:** ![IWLN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5ac83/32.png) [@IWLN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IWLN)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2003, 9:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544/149 "2003-12-30T09:18:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tangent \* > \*\*No chance at all of you making up another religion? In a way, isn’t that exactly what you’re doing, **lekatt**? > You act as though you have all the answers and you tell everyone that disagrees with you that they are wrong. This is what all religions do. > Do you **all** realize that as confident and secure and “enlightened” as you feel about your beliefs, everyone else is just as certain about their own religions? That even among followers of a specific religion, there are often wildly varying interpretations of the “truth?” > As a result, many people are choosing to define their religious beliefs in more and more general terms. Why try to defend improbable religious histories and questionable behavioral laws when you can just do away with all that and simply say “God is love and love is everything?” Forget all that stuff about Moses, Jesus, Allah, Muhammed, Vishnu, whomever. **Lekatt** is a man ahead of his time–at some point in the future all churches may become desperately minimalist just to retain their membership. > Basically, none of us **know** exactly how we got here or why we are here or if there even _is_ a why. And people fear the unknown. Religion and the vague “spirituality” preached by some of you here are a response to this fear. \*\* I am in no way trying to be rude, but what was your point? Since you originally addressed **lekatt** , but then “you all”, not sure what you’re getting at. I’m not certain about _any_ religion, only about G-d. Was this just a statement you wanted to get off you chest or did you want to debate some point in particular? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2003, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544/150 "2003-12-30T13:12:03Z")
You’re welcome. 🙂 **IWLN**. ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2003, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544/151 "2003-12-30T13:48:10Z")
> [@](#): > > The only way you can state that “Jesus is the only way,” beyond a shadow of a doubt, is to have been there or perhaps received an informational visit from G-d. I’m not trying to be anything but caring and truthful here so please don’t take this the wrong way. There has been a visit of God to this earth. Jesus Christ was God in the flesh, Colossians 2:9. We do have information from God, the Holy Bible and it tells us that Jesus is the only way for everyone to the Father. We believe what it says and care about people so we want to share it. That’s why missionaries go to foreign lands with the gospel as Jesus commanded. For many of us, there is “no shadow of a doubt.” I realize not everyone agrees with these things and the Bible teaches that not everyone will believe. Peace and have a great new year! ---
**Author:** ![IWLN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5ac83/32.png) [@IWLN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IWLN)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2003, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544/152 "2003-12-30T16:07:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lynn73 \* > \*\*I’m not trying to be anything but caring and truthful here so please don’t take this the wrong way. There has been a visit of God to this earth. Jesus Christ was God in the flesh, Colossians 2:9. We do have information from God, the Holy Bible and it tells us that Jesus is the only way for everyone to the Father. We believe what it says and care about people so we want to share it. That’s why missionaries go to foreign lands with the gospel as Jesus commanded. For many of us, there is “no shadow of a doubt.” I realize not everyone agrees with these things and the Bible teaches that not everyone will believe. > > Peace and have a great new year! \*\* You have almost 6 billion people to go and most won’t believe that you are not an evil western woman out to try and pervert their faith. Percentage wise, you will fail. Still seems like a pretty lousy plan, for such a powerful, loving G-d. There is no shadow of a doubt for me as far as my faith in G-d is concerned. My complete faith in the Bible is another matter. Looking at all of what was going on back in Jesus’ time and even evaluating whether man’s purpose, rather than G-d’s was the basis of the NT is important. Blindly believing or taking for granted that this text is the infallible work of G-d is not knowledge, only belief. Since the message of Jesus doesn’t appear to be an equal message of love and opportunity, I have to question it. I don’t really know why I never did before. Knowing someone, especially a former Christian is questioning Jesus and what he stood for, is guaranteed to make good Christian’s cringe and look for lightening bolts. 😉 I do get that. I even feel it at times. Why am I doing it? For me, it needs to be done. It’s part of his plan for me or I wouldn’t be doing it. I still feel G-d’s presence. I can’t find the 666 mark on me yet(kidding), so I don’t feel like I’m incurring any wrath yet. I have a feeling he’ll let me know if I do. :eek: He’s always been there for me and always answered my prayers. I’ve felt him grow silent and withdraw from me at times in my life when I was really screwing up. It’s an unmistakable feeling. I’m watching for it. I think it’s okay to critically examine your religion and faith. For me, it’s forced me to get rid of some things that don’t matter or weren’t right. I’m looking and praying hard about the rest. I think you have to seek out your own relationship with G-d. The one you get from religion is only where you start building.🙂 Peace be with you. ---
**Author:** ![Tangent](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tangent/32/3098_2.png) [@Tangent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tangent)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2003, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544/153 "2003-12-30T17:52:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by IWLN \* > \*\*I am in no way trying to be rude, but what was your point? Since you originally addressed **lekatt** , but then “you all”, not sure what you’re getting at. I’m not certain about _any_ religion, only about G-d. Was this just a statement you wanted to get off you chest or did you want to debate some point in particular? 🙂 \*\* My point is we all hold our own views on religion and the truth is in the eye of the beholder. You say you are “not certain about any religion, only about G-d.” Well, you are no more certain about G-d than vanilla or lynn is about God. It’s like I came upon some people arguing what color the invisible unicorn is and I am trying to say, “Uh, hey folks–if it’s there, it’s invisible. That means you can’t see it.” Meanwhile you are saying “I can see it–it’s pink,” while flinging pink paint all around, hoping some of it will stick. And others are screaming, “No, it’s blue,” as they fling blue paint. And you’re right–I just felt I had to get that off my chest after reading through this thread. I don’t spend much time in Great Debates, but I should still know better than to get worked up when I see people pretending to **know** the nature of God. Please continue your two-sided debate on whether there is a Christian God or whether G-d is a warm fuzzy. Forgive me for trying to interject a differing opinion on religion. I’ll go elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![IWLN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5ac83/32.png) [@IWLN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IWLN)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2003, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544/154 "2003-12-30T19:50:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tangent \* > \*\*My point is we all hold our own views on religion and the truth is in the eye of the beholder. You say you are “not certain about any religion, only about G-d.” Well, you are no more certain about G-d than vanilla or lynn is about God. > > Please continue your two-sided debate on whether there is a Christian God or whether G-d is a warm fuzzy. Forgive me for trying to interject a differing opinion on religion. I’ll go elsewhere. \*\* Of course we all have our own views and experiences. That’s pretty much the point of debating or discussing them. It would just be a “high-five” if we all agreed. FTR, I don’t think G-d is a Christian G-d or a warm fuzzy. I know what he is through my doctrination, perception and experiences. This is GD, the right place if you have a differing opinion. I can’t agree that the _truth_ is in the eye of the beholder, but what we believe is. I was not challenging you on your statement. Hey, I even used a smilie. I’m sorry if I offended you.☹ ---
**Author:** ![ImNotMad2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f08c70/32.png) [@ImNotMad2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ImNotMad2)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2003, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544/155 "2003-12-30T22:20:21Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by IWLN_ > You have almost 6 billion people to go and most won’t believe that you are not an evil western woman out to try and pervert their faith. Percentage wise, you will fail. Still seems like a pretty lousy plan, for such a powerful, loving G-d. Jesus recognizes that most will reject him. He himself said: “Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.” Matthew 7:13-14 King James Version. > [@](#): > > Blindly believing or taking for granted that this text is the infallible work of G-d is not knowledge, only belief. Indeed, you can believe what the evidence leads you to believe. Or not. The evidence is the knowledge; what you decide after weighing the evidence is your belief. > [@](#): > > Since the message of Jesus doesn’t appear to be an equal message of love and opportunity, I have to question it. God will reveal the truth to any who want it, and His offer is open to anybody who will receive it: “Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.” Matthew 7:7-8 King James Version. “For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.” Romans 10:12 King James Version. > [@](#): > > Knowing someone, especially a former Christian is questioning Jesus and what he stood for, is guaranteed to make good Christian’s cringe and look for lightening bolts. I do get that. I even feel it at times. Why am I doing it? For me, it needs to be done. By all means, don’t be afraid to question things. There’s no reason to “blindly” believe anything. There’s plenty of reason to believe what stands on solid evidence. Don’t take me wrong here: If you don’t know the evidence, then your belief is blind, regardless of what you believe. Also, just because somebody doesn’t know the answers to your questions, doesn’t mean there are not good answers. Keep searching; the quest for truth is a never-ending process. > [@](#): > > I’ve felt him grow silent and withdraw from me at times in my life when I was really screwing up. It’s an unmistakable feeling. Feelings, emotions, and experiences are a notoriously deceptive source for truth: “There is a way which seems right to a man, but its end is the way to death.” Proverbs 14:12 Revised Standard Version > [@](#): > > I think you have to seek out your own relationship with G-d. The one you get from religion is only where you start building. You make an interesting point here. God wants a relationship with you; beyond that, religion is meaningless. Only problem is, because of our sin, we are separated from God. God wants reconciliation, and has provided a way for us to become reconciled to Him. We can come to God, but it must be done His way, not ours. It’s easy to ignore the justice of God; but a God who is love, is a God who is holy, for there would be no love in an unholy being. Without justice, God could not be a holy God; and a holy God cannot allow sin to go unpunished: “For the wages of sin is death…” Romans 6:23 King James Version. A murderer cannot become innocent by trying to love his neighbors, no matter how good his intentions become. He is still a murderer, and nobody in their right mind will allow him into their home. Likewise, and person who commits a sin is guilty of sin, and cannot become innocent by anything he does; he is still a sinner. This is why we can do nothing to satisfy the True Judge, because we are still guilty of sin. God’s Justice requires satisfaction; without it, we cannot be reconciled to Him: this is why we need Jesus; this is why Jesus is called the Christ: because his work frees us from the bondage of sin, when we trust him. “since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith.” Romans 3:23-25 Revised Standard Version. Love; Repentance; Grace ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2003, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544/156 "2003-12-30T23:28:05Z")
You explain things well, **ImNotMad2.** ---
**Author:** ![IWLN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5ac83/32.png) [@IWLN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IWLN)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2003, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544/157 "2003-12-30T23:55:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ImNotMad2 \* > Jesus recognizes that most will reject him. He himself said: > “Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.” Matthew 7:13-14 King James Version. Well you started off with the scripture that I think is some of the most negative, depressing witness there is. How is it okay that Jesus recognizes that most will reject him. Am I the only one that finds that absolutely horrifying? Why would G-d have a plan like that? I have always felt and been sure of his love for us. How is this not a montrous plan? > [@](#): > > Indeed, you can believe what the evidence leads you to believe. Or not. The evidence is the knowledge; what you decide after weighing the evidence is your belief. I believe the evidence I have received from G-d and used to without much thought believe the Bible. I still believe the OT, but the more I study the NT and the history of it, the harder it is for me to believe it. Why would he let me believe all of this for most of my life and then allow me not to, if it were true? > [@](#): > > God will reveal the truth to any who want it, and His offer is open to anybody who will receive it: > “Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.” Matthew 7:7-8 King James Version. > “For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.” Romans 10:12 King James Version. I’m familiar with these Bible verses, but it doesn’t help when I’m not sure the message is true anymore. Saying that salvation is open to anyone, sounds good, but I guarantee you if I was raised in the Jewish faith, for example; I wouldn’t get the message, because I was raised to believe it was false. I don’t know for sure, but I think it’s probably rare for a Jew to convert to Christianity. > [@](#): > > By all means, don’t be afraid to question things. There’s no reason to “blindly” believe anything. There’s plenty of reason to believe what stands on solid evidence. Don’t take me wrong here: If you don’t know the evidence, then your belief is blind, regardless of what you believe. Also, just because somebody doesn’t know the answers to your questions, doesn’t mean there are not good answers. Keep searching; the quest for truth is a never-ending process. Not afraid, just cautious. I just can’t agree that you have solid evidence. If by some chance the NT was falsified, you have no religion. > [@](#): > > Feelings, emotions, and experiences are a notoriously deceptive source for truth: > “There is a way which seems right to a man, but its end is the way to death.” Proverbs 14:12 Revised Standard Version You are trusting your feelings. That’s what faith is. Only someone who’s never felt G-d’s presence could think there is a way to mistake it for anything else. And experiences with G-d aren’t anything but the truth. Pure. > [@](#): > > You make an interesting point here. God wants a relationship with you; beyond that, religion is meaningless. Only problem is, because of our sin, we are separated from God. God wants reconciliation, and has provided a way for us to become reconciled to Him. We can come to God, but it must be done His way, not ours. Does it ever strike you as odd that G-d created our sin, allowed us to be separated and then gave us a way to make it up to him? I’m not arrogant enough to think I can set the way I come to G-d, but I have enough faith to know he’ll provide the way and not let me get lost. > [@](#): > > It’s easy to ignore the justice of God; but a God who is love, is a God who is holy, for there would be no love in an unholy being. Without justice, God could not be a holy God; and a holy God cannot allow sin to go unpunished: > “For the wages of sin is death…” Romans 6:23 King James Version. If I’ve given the impression that I don’t believe in a just G-d or that we shouldn’t have to be accountable, that’s not true. I expect correction. I have a hard time thinking that Jesus could get us off without us making ammends for our sin. A just G-d would give all mankind an equal chance and I don’t see that it is. > [@](#): > > A murderer cannot become innocent by trying to love his neighbors, no matter how good his intentions become. He is still a murderer, and nobody in their right mind will allow him into their home. Likewise, and person who commits a sin is guilty of sin, and cannot become innocent by anything he does; he is still a sinner. This is an odd concept for me. I get the part that basically G-d’s love is the only thing that can wipe the slate clean, I just don’t see why the message isn’t more about repentence. This event, the crucifixtion is too much like a free pass for the few chosen. > [@](#): > > This is why we can do nothing to satisfy the True Judge, because we are still guilty of sin. God’s Justice requires satisfaction; without it, we cannot be reconciled to Him: this is why we need Jesus; this is why Jesus is called the Christ: because his work frees us from the bondage of sin, when we trust him. > > “since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith.” Romans 3:23-25 Revised Standard Version. I never used to see this as strange. Odd. Why did G-d need Jesus? ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2003, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544/158 "2003-12-31T00:12:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by IWLN \* > \*\*Why did G-d need Jesus? \*\* I don’t know if this will help answer that for you or not: [http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Garden/1799/son.html](http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Garden/1799/son.html) ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2003, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544/159 "2003-12-31T01:13:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ImNotMad2 \* > **Jesus recognizes that most will reject him. He himself said: > “Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.” Matthew 7:13-14 King James Version.** Well, you’re misconstruing what Jesus meant by this statement. The “narrow path” does not mean worshipping Jeus it means living a life of love and compassion. Even so, It would be a pretty worthless method of salvation that failed to save the vast majority of mankind, would it not? Why wouldn’t God come up with a more effective mechanism? Why does he need any mechanism at all, for that matter. If he wants to save me he can save me. He’s omnipotent isn’t he? And he’s only saving people from himself. > [@](#): > > **Indeed, you can believe what the evidence leads you to believe. Or not. The evidence is the knowledge; what you decide after weighing the evidence is your belief.** _what_ evidence? > [@](#): > > **God will reveal the truth to any who want it, and His offer is open to anybody who will receive it: > “Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.” Matthew 7:7-8 King James Version. > “For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.” Romans 10:12 King James Version.** Right. So in other words, God doesn’t care what religion you are. > [@](#): > > **By all means, don’t be afraid to question things. There’s no reason to “blindly” believe anything.** Agreed. > [@](#): > > **There’s plenty of reason to believe what stands on solid evidence. Don’t take me wrong here: If you don’t know the evidence, then your belief is blind, regardless of what you believe.** So let’s have some of that “solid evidence.” I’ve never seen any (and the Bible doesn’t count, so don’t even bother quoting scripture at me. That’s a circular argument). > [@](#): > > **Also, just because somebody doesn’t know the answers to your questions, doesn’t mean there are not good answers.** I suspect otherwise, but even so, it’s absurd to ask someone to go along with a patently inane belief system without giving them solid answers to questions. Critical thought comes first. I have no use for blind belief and I’m not taking anyone’s mere word for anything…especially when it comes to a belief system which is not only illogical (and at times empirically falsifiable) but also capricious, malevolent, uncompassionate and unfair. > [@](#): > > **Keep searching; the quest for truth is a never-ending process.** Agreed. > [@](#): > > **Feelings, emotions, and experiences are a notoriously deceptive source for truth:** Exactly. That’s why it’s better to use systematic, empirical methods to search for truth rather than blind belief and reliance on archaic mythologies. > [@](#): > > **"There is a way which seems right to a man, but its end is the way to death." Proverbs 14:12 Revised Standard Version** You and **lynn** should really heed that quotation. > [@](#): > > **You make an interesting point here. God wants a relationship with you; beyond that, religion is meaningless. Only problem is, because of our sin, we are separated from God. God wants reconciliation, and has provided a way for us to become reconciled to Him. We can come to God, but it must be done His way, not ours.** What “sin?” I’m a good person. I don’t kill people or molest children. I give to charity. I volunteer for charitable causes. Why does God hate me so much that he wants to burn me in hell? What kind of a dick would even _invent_ hell? Also. how did nailing a hippie to a stick pay for my sins? Why does God require a blood sacrifice? What perverse gratification does he receive from such an act? How primative is that? > [@](#): > > **It’s easy to ignore the justice of God; but a God who is love, is a God who is holy, for there would be no love in an unholy being. Without justice, God could not be a holy God; and a holy God cannot allow sin to go unpunished: > “For the wages of sin is death…” Romans 6:23 King James Version.** WHY does “sin” have to be “punished?” For what purpose? What’s just about torturing people eternally for such a trivial sin as not being a Christian? How is that loving? This is the most ludicrous part of the fundie worldview, IMO. Why can’t God just judge people by their personal character instead of whether or not the happen to latch onto one “correct” theological belief out of thousands, none of which have the slightest bit of empirical support? What kind of crazy, psycho God would operate that way? > [@](#): > > **A murderer cannot become innocent by trying to love his neighbors, no matter how good his intentions become. He is still a murderer, and nobody in their right mind will allow him into their home. Likewise, and person who commits a sin is guilty of sin, and cannot become innocent by anything he does; he is still a sinner.** So what? What’s so horrible about being a sinner? > [@](#): > > This is why we can do nothing to satisfy the True Judge,\*\* What an unbelievable asshole this judge is. > [@](#): > > **because we are still guilty of sin.** Cite that we are all guilty of sin? 😛 You know that’s really just an expression faith, don’t you. It’s not like there’s a scientific way to determine whether _everyone_ is guilty of sin, and I call bullshit on that assertion. My four year old daughter isn’t guilty of any “sin,” and neither is my wife as far as I’m concerned. What IS “sin” anyway? What does that word even mean? More importantly, why does God care if someone has a few petty sins in their past? So what? Are you really saying that _anyone_ who ever does _anything_ remotely “sinful” deserves to be tortured forever? Is not being a Christian a sin? How about the 6 million Jews who died in the holocaust? Are they all burning in Hell now? Is God THAT much of sadistic, hateful sicko? > [@](#): > > **God’s Justice requires satisfaction;** What do you mean by “satisfaction,” and how could a perfect being ever be UNsatisfied? > [@](#): > > **without it, we cannot be reconciled to Him:** Can’t God do whatever he wants? Are you saying he’s not all powerful? > [@](#): > > **this is why we need Jesus; this is why Jesus is called the Christ: because his work frees us from the bondage of sin, when we trust him.** Jesus said love God and love your neighbor and you will live. He also said that how you treat your neighbor IS how you treat God. So all you have to do is love your neighbor. I don’t need “Christ” for that. > [@](#): > > **"since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith." Romans 3:23-25 Revised Standard Version.** Theological gibberish rooted in archaic customs of blood sacrifice. It’s utterly illogical upon any examination at all. Why does God need a “sacrifice” to save us from himself? Burning people forever is his choice and his choice alone. If he doesn’t want to do it he doesn’t have to. If he wants to save Hitler he can do it and Hitler can’t stop him. Any God who would devise eternal torture for good people simply for not being Christian is not a God worth any respect or affection. I reject such a God outright because that God is evil. Only human beings could fantasize something as grotesque as an eternal hell. No loving God would invent such a thing. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2003, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544/160 "2003-12-31T02:16:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\* > > What kind of a dick would even _invent_ hell? > > Also. how did nailing a hippie to a stick pay for my sins? way? > > \*\* From what I have read, Hell was created for the devil and demons;not people. WHo you callin a hippie?! Really,though, Jesus was radical for His time. It amazes me how EVERY chrisitan I know is a Republican. I am not in agreement with you on religion,but I am on politics. One does Not have to be conservative to be christian,though i feel i am the only one. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2003, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544/161 "2003-12-31T02:25:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ImNotMad2 \* > \*\* > > A murderer cannot become innocent by trying to love his neighbors, no matter how good his intentions become. He is still a murderer, and nobody in their right mind will allow him into their home. Likewise, and person who commits a sin is guilty of sin, and cannot become innocent by anything he does; he is still a sinner. > > \*\* I don’t see where youre going with this. its my beilef that anyone, even a murderer can become saved and forgiven. 2 of the manson murderers, Charles Watson and Susan Atkins (I’ve read their books) got saved. No one is too far gone to get forgiven. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believing-in-santa-believing-in-god-satan/220544.md?page=9)