The way I learned it, there are no works you can do and you can’t earn forgiveness for sin. G-d gave it freely when he sent Jesus to be sacrificed. It’s there for the asking. That I believe is what INM2 was trying to say.
Of course I think that’s a load of crap, since a Omnipotent G-d wouldn’t have needed to, a just G-d would actually want repentence and service, and a loving G-d would just forgive you. No sacrificing his son involved.
You’re right that Revelation describes the “lake of fire” as being reserved for Satan and his demons. Other references to “Hell” are mistranslations of Gehenna or Sheol neither of which is an eternal Hell. The idea that sinners go to hell for eternity is built more from Christian tradition (and artistic works like Dante’s Inferno or Milton’s Paradise Lost) than from the Bible.
Don’t tell Lynn that, though. 
Sorry. I don’t mean it derisively. that’s only my facetious characterization of a guy with long hair who preached a message of peace and love.
More so than many people realize even now.
You probably know a lot of conservative (fundamentalist) Christians. There are plenty of politically liberal Christians. Bill Clinton is a Southern Baptist. Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton are ministers. Hillary is (IIRC) a Methodist. Ted Kennedy is Catholic.
I would venture to say that most registered Democrats are Christians but they probably belong to more liberal denominations than what you’re familiar with.
Actually, I think I could make a pretty good argument that Jesus was a bleeding heart liberal.
That would be Libertarian .
It was not taken derisivley,I am a hippie/yippie myself!
Yes,I’ve onlybelonged to fundie churches,so…all pubbies.
Isn’t there a verse which says those who take the Mark of The Beast will taste the wrath of God forever?
That would e people.
Revelations was IMHO the first bad acid trip. Here’s the best cite I could find. I hope the mark of the beast isn’t a purple rose.:eek:
(Rev14:9-11)
9A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, 10he, too, will drink of the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.”
In its historical context this is a warning to Christians to keep the faith and not show loyalty to Rome but it does indeed seem to constitute a threat of something like Hell for certain peopel.
It should be noted, though, that the Greek word translated as “forever” ([symbol]anaiwn[/symbol]) does not have that precise connotation in Greek. It really just indicates an a very long (and indefinite) time but it does carry the supposition of an ending. It might be better translated as something like an “eon” or “ages and ages.” A long tome but not literally forever.
Nah, you were polite enough. I just got myself worked up, but I’m feeling much better now.
I’m glad. 
lynn73 or ImNotMad2 or anyone,
All these questions keep coming up. Diogenes raised some good points, questions that I have. It seems like these “debates” never really go anywhere. It is not my intent to debate these issues, but I would like some answers. Bible verses instead of answers do me little good. I can quote it too, but don’t see how it answers many of the questions. If either one of you can address any of these questions or statements, it would be very helpful to me. Thank you.
<It would be a pretty worthless method of salvation that failed to save the vast majority of mankind, would it not?
<Why wouldn’t G-d come up with a more effective mechanism? Why does he need any mechanism at all, for that matter.
<If he wants to save me he can save me.
<He’s omnipotent isn’t he?
<And he’s only saving people from himself.
<Right. So in other words, G-d doesn’t care what religion you are.
<So let’s have some of that “solid evidence.” I’ve never seen any (and the Bible doesn’t count, so don’t even bother quoting scripture at me. That’s a circular argument).
<Please explain: “There is a way which seems right to a man, but its end is the way to death.” Proverbs 14:12 Revised Standard Version
<Please explain: Feelings, emotions, and experiences are a notoriously deceptive source for truth:
<What “sin?” I’m a good person. I don’t kill people or molest children. I give to charity. I volunteer for charitable causes.
<Why does G-d hate me so much that he wants to burn me in hell?
<What kind of a dick would even invent hell?
<Also. how did nailing a hippie(uh, substitue Jesus) to a stick pay for my sins?
<Why does G-d require a blood sacrifice?
<What perverse gratification does he receive from such an act?
<WHY does “sin” have to be “punished?” For what purpose?
<What’s just about torturing people eternally for such a trivial sin as not being a Christian?
<How is that loving?
<Why can’t G-d just judge people by their personal character instead of whether or not the happen to latch onto one “correct” theological belief out of thousands, none of which have the slightest bit of empirical support?
<What kind of crazy, psycho G-d would operate that way?
<So what? What’s so horrible about being a sinner?
<Cite that we are all guilty of sin?
<What IS “sin” anyway? What does that word even mean?
<More importantly, why does G-d care if someone has a few petty sins in their past?
< Are you really saying that anyone who ever does anything remotely “sinful” deserves to be tortured forever?
<Is not being a Christian a sin?
<How about the 6 million Jews who died in the holocaust? Are they all burning in Hell now?
<What do you mean by “satisfaction,” and how could a perfect being ever be UNsatisfied?
<Can’t God do whatever he wants? Are you saying he’s not all powerful?
<Jesus said love G-d and love your neighbor and you will live. He also said that how you treat your neighbor IS how you treat G-d. So all you have to do is love your neighbor. I don’t need “Christ” for that.
<Why does G-d need a “sacrifice” to save us from himself? Burning people forever is his choice and his choice alone. If he doesn’t want to do it he doesn’t have to. If he wants to save Hitler he can do it and Hitler can’t stop him.
<Only human beings could fantasize something as grotesque as an eternal hell. No loving G-d would invent such a thing.
This verse immediately came to mind when you started telling us how good you are:
Luke 18:9-14
9Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. 12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. 13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
You can never be good enough because in God’s eyes all our righteousness is as filthy rags in his sight, Isaiah 64:6 We need the righteousness of Christ applied to us and that comes only with belief and acceptance of Him and what He did for us on the cross. We can’t be and never will be good or righteous enough for Heaven on our own.
I wish I could answer every question you come up with to your satisfaction, ILWN, but even if I did, you’d probably just keep coming up with more. As idiotic as this may sound to some people here, I’ve been praying for you and will continue to do so.
Peace.
Re 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
While hell was original created for the devil and his angels, where else would those humans go who’ve done the same thing in rejecting God? While God didn’t make any provision for the restoration and salvation of fallen angels, He has for us. But we have to accept it. There’s enough Scripture about it to show that humans will be there, as well as fallen angels.
Diogenes, God doesn’t hate you. He loved you so much that He sent Christ to die a horrible death so you could have the possibility of eternal life. I’ve heard it said this way:
Question to Jesus: How much do you love me?
Jesus: I love you this much, and He stretched out His arms and died.
That’s love, my friend, not hate. The gift is there for you, but if you choose to reject it, then you don’t have the benefit of it, it’s not yours. Kind of like if you leave a wrapped Christmas present under your tree and never open it. I know that I can’t answer all of your questions to your satisfaction but God is who He is. I know you don’t believe the Bible so you’re pretty much not going to listen or believe anything it says. I will continue praying for you as God directs.
Peace.
No lynn, it doesn’t sound idiotic. I’ve been praying for you too. I was pretty sure you wouldn’t answer my questions, as no Christian ever really does. I do know all of the standard answers. I was hoping you would give some thought to how limited you have created your G-d to be.
This is one of my pet peeve with the Christian message and I didn’t really point a couple of things out before, so I will now. This verses are taken out of context and their meaning changes considerably. This is not about accepting Jesus. Matthew 7:12, the verse directly before this is the Golden Rule.
The entire chapter is about not judging other men and about asking G-d for what you need. It’s about taking the right path here and the difficulty of “staying on the straight and narrow”. When Jesus talks about us “hearing these words of MINE”, he is talking about his G-d, not himself. It talks about knowing a man by his fruits(works) and that just because you claim to know G-d doesn’t mean he knows you. It’s about doing G-d’s will. Jesus, the prophet, was telling people how to live and how to worship G-d, not himself. The narrow gate is not about heaven or hell, it’s about love and sacrifice. Ours. It does not mean heaven will be sparsely populated.:rolleyes:
Well, I didn’t create my God. He existed before anything else did and created all things. And yes, my knowledge is limited to what He’s revealed of Himself in His word plus my relationship with Him through Christ. And since I believe that the Bible is His word, I believe He won’t contradict Himself if you happen to ask why I don’t believe or accept any idea about Him that comes along. He is limited Himself in some things because of His very nature and persnality. For instance, He can’t lie.
Titus 1:2
In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
Of course, if you don’t accept the Bible as authoritative, what it says isn’t going to mean anything to you.
What we can know about God is what He chooses to reveal about Himself. Apart from that, we don’t know anything:
http://www.nbible.org/bible/bible_answer.cfm?Q_Number=53&Course_ID=5
Fraid I have to agree with I’mNotMad2 on that.
This doesn’t really answer any of my questions and it isn’t a loving theology. Putting aside the logical questions about the need for a sacrifice, it turns salvation into a guessing game. guess which belief is the correct one and you go to Heaven, guess wrong and it’s off to the pit.
Oh…and there will be no clues from God about which is correct. No physical evidence, no way to determine anything from empirical exploration, no mathematical equation, no logical steps, no way at all to arrive at the correct belief except for sheer, blind chance. God might as well just ask us what number he’s thinking of between one and a billion. It doesn’t even matter what kind of person you are. Guess right, you’re in, guess wrong, you burn.
If you’re a kind, loving Jew, too bad!. If you’re a peaceful Buddhist monk, you burn! If you’re a serial killer who gets “saved” in prison, congratulations, you’re in! (and if the victims of that serial killer guessed wrong, they burn.
Can’t you see how capricious this is, how utterly irrational, unjust and mean?
I also don’t understand why righteousness wouldn’t be good enough for God. Why isn’t it good enough to be a good person? WHY would a loving God require perfection in a creature that HE CREATED TO BE IMPERFECT?
Yes, any old idea that comes along, like he’s loving, fair and actually wants us to succeed. What could I have been thinking? Hell was not a default judgment before Jesus came along. You led a good life, worshipped G-d, did as he commanded and were promised salvation. Jesus came along and it’s suddenly not good enough?
I certainly agree with this one. G-d doesn’t lie about man. Man lies about G-d. Although I certainly don’t think it’s intentional, just blind.
That’s true, we only have what G-d reveals. This is often clouded by what man refuses to see. Do you believe that he’s only revealed himself to Christians and you are the only ones who have the message right? Did you luck out, or what!!
You did read the whole chapter? I don’t even see this one as some sort of matter needing interpretation. No hidden message. It’s very clear. When you read the Bible, are you looking for Jesus in every scripture or looking for G-d’s word? I don’t understand how it could sound so different to two people? It is indeed “a mystery”.
I could’ve sworn there was a verse which claims that God saves who he will.
In other words, He decideds, Yep-I’ll let this person understand about me and salvation.
Why some and not others?
I do not know.
Unless its just so obvious to unbelievers and they are just not seeing it.
Either way, I dont claim to know God’s thoughts (well,some…)
What about “Mercy triumphs over judgment”?
How much mercy do sinners get if they are merciful?