# Belk Dept Stores - aren't allowing Salvation Army Kettles this Christmas. Any opinions? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 3, 2017, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/belk-dept-stores-arent-allowing-salvation-army-kettles-this-christmas-any-opinions/803451 "2017-12-03T15:53:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2017, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/belk-dept-stores-arent-allowing-salvation-army-kettles-this-christmas-any-opinions/803451/61 "2017-12-03T23:41:58Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > I think Christmas is their biggest source of local donations. > > Angel Tree is different. SA puts together a list of local needy families and the kid’s gifts items. Shoppers get a card from the Angel Tree, buy the items, and drop them off. SA distributes them. > > You’re not giving anything directly to SA. They’re just a distribution channel to the families. > > I like it because the donated items are things the kids requested. Instead of me randomly buying a teddy bear the child may not want. So are you now ok with not patronizing the kettles in front of stores, as long as you can contribute to this Angel Tree (and what a cloyingly obnoxious name that is)? Are families with 2 gay parents welcome to participate as a needy family in this program, assuming they are as needy as the next family? Are we taking bets? ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2017, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/belk-dept-stores-arent-allowing-salvation-army-kettles-this-christmas-any-opinions/803451/62 "2017-12-03T23:59:37Z")
I simply want to support a charity that helps a lot of people with a wide variety of programs. I support other charities besides SA. There are a lot of groups out there making people’s lives better. Toys for Tots is a wonderful program that I also support. My focus is on helping people and doing what I can to make a small difference. Even it it’s only making sure a kid has a present to open on Christmas. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2017, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/belk-dept-stores-arent-allowing-salvation-army-kettles-this-christmas-any-opinions/803451/63 "2017-12-04T00:05:14Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > I simply want to support a charity that helps a lot of people with a wide variety of programs. > > I support other charities besides SA. There are a lot of groups out there making people’s lives better. Toys for Tots is a wonderful program that I also support. > > My focus is on helping people and doing what I can to make a small difference. Even it it’s only making sure a kid has a present to open on Christmas. Sure, and now you know more about the organization, so instead of being upset with Belk, maybe you can understand there can be many reasons to not let them be out front anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2017, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/belk-dept-stores-arent-allowing-salvation-army-kettles-this-christmas-any-opinions/803451/64 "2017-12-04T00:24:52Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > My focus is on helping people and doing what I can to make a small difference. Even it it’s only making sure a kid has a present to open on Christmas. You could give gifts through Toys for Tots, seeing as how the Marine Corps is more supportive of civil rights than the Salvation Army. Except for the killing. The Marines are much better at that; but I’m excluding that from my definition of civil rights. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2017, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/belk-dept-stores-arent-allowing-salvation-army-kettles-this-christmas-any-opinions/803451/65 "2017-12-04T00:32:42Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Okay, that’s pretty awful… I’d like to know if that is established SA policy, or was just one hideous example of some boob misusing his authority. I don’t particularly like the Salvation Army, and I don’t give to them, but it appears that the line in the Wikipedia article is not exactly accurate. According to the blog post linked in the Wikipedia article, > [@](#): > > The reason she was outside on the sidewalk instead of inside the shelter is because they would not allow her to be housed with the women because of genitalia incongruent with her gender presentation. She would have been foced by their policies to be housed with cisgender men. and the Wikipedia article on Jennifer Gale quotes an aide to a city council member retracting her earlier comments blaming her death on the SA, by saying that the SA does not turn transgender people away but when the shelter is full, people are assigned according to their anatomy. Apparently, when they are not full, they can provide more privacy. Housing transgender people is an issue that goes beyond the Salvation Army’s religious beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2017, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/belk-dept-stores-arent-allowing-salvation-army-kettles-this-christmas-any-opinions/803451/66 "2017-12-04T00:37:25Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > They don’t discriminate in that way, only in hiring. If a gay homeless man needed food, they wouldn’t turn him away. > > (If I’m wrong in this, someone tell me, and I’ll hate the bastards far more than I already do. Discrimination in hiring is assholery, but turning away the needy on grounds of sexual orientation is monstrous.) Well, here’s a first-hand account of a man who was told he’d have to break up with his boyfriend to receive help/ The article mostly talks about how the Salvation Army uses donations for push anti-gay political agenda (which makes AcePlace’s ‘not talking politics’ position a bit odd, since they’re an anti-gay lobbying organization), but does include: > [@http://bilerico.lgbtqnation.com/2011/11/why\_you\_shouldnt\_donate\_to\_the\_salvation\_army\_bell.php](#): > > I’ve seen the discrimination the Salvation Army preaches first hand. When a former boyfriend and I were homeless, the Salvation Army insisted we break up before they’d offer assistance. We slept on the street instead and declined to break up as they demanded. Also, while it’s not exactly turning away an individual, I think actions like threatening to close all shelters if they’re required to comply with anti-discrimination laws is the same sort of thing, and from the same article: > [@](#): > > In 2004, the Salvation Army threatened to close all their soup kitchens in New York City to protest the city’s decision to require all vendors and charities doing business with the city to adhere to all civil rights laws. The organization balked at having to treat gay employees equal to straight employees. Here’s a first hand accounts from a Dan Savage reader: > [@https://www.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2011/12/16/dont-donate-to-the-salvation-army-dont-donate-to-charity&view=comments](#): > > “Three years ago one of my community college students became homeless during the semester,” a Slog commenter writes. “The only shelter in our midwestern capitol city with any openings for women and children was a SA shelter. This lesbian household was told they had two choices: One of them could live on the street and the shelter would take the other mom and the kids as a ‘family,’ or they could all sleep on the street. My student let her partner and kids be a ‘family’ in the eyes of those abusive fuckers while she slept outside. Two school employees even called to try to intervene. [That] evil organization will never get a cent of my money.” And some more from a link in that article: > [@http://bilerico.lgbtqnation.com/2011/12/im\_the\_red\_kettle\_menace.php?utm\_source=front\_page&utm\_medium=top\_story&utm\_campaign=Top\_Story](#): > > Gregory: Back in my theist days in the mid to late 80s, I was a deacon at the Metropolitan Community Church in Tucson. MCC is an evangelical denomination that serves a mostly lesbian and gay demographic, and MCC-Tucson was, at the time, located downtown. > > We occasionally got homeless people coming by the church in need of services; often, they were gay and knew that they could get help from us. We kept a list of service agencies in the area, and would refer people to where they could get the assistance they needed, such as food, shelter and clothes. On that list was a SA men’s shelter three blocks from the church. > > ## Eventually, the Salvation Army learned that the community church down the street from them was run by and for _gasp_ homosexuals, and that we welcomed people rather than condemned them. The Tucson commandery sent us a polite but pointed letter informing us that all of their shelters and other services have been instructed NOT to take our referrals. It seemed they preferred to have gay men sleeping on the streets where they might be assaulted, robbed, even freeze to death… than emulate the Good Samaritan. > > ## ursomniac: The SA has - on many occasions - denied aid to people who they discovered were not heterosexual but ALSO to heterosexuals who allowed non-heterosexuals to live with them (and would directly or indirectly benefit from the aid). In one case, they told a woman with young children whose husband had just died that before they’d help her she had to evict her late husband’s brother who was living with them and dying of AIDS-related complications. > > Priya Lynn: I know a couple who went to them for assistance and were told they’d only get assistance if they ended their relationship. Just because a lot of churches have this stance doesn’t make it right and doesn’t make it not homophobic. Here’s how they treat trans people in spite of laws specifying exactly what they should do: [https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2017/07/salvation-army-busted-discriminating-transgender-people/](https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2017/07/salvation-army-busted-discriminating-transgender-people/) 11/11/why\_you\_shouldnt\_donate\_to\_the\_salvation\_army\_bell.php ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2017, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/belk-dept-stores-arent-allowing-salvation-army-kettles-this-christmas-any-opinions/803451/67 "2017-12-04T01:36:29Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > I can’t apply a litmus test to every person or organization that I use. You should explain that to this dude: > [@aceplace57](#): > > My family won’t be Christmas Shopping at Belks this year. We just don’t feel comfortable patronizing Belks stores this year. Me, I’m happy donating toys to kids that need them, and sending regular money to food banks. Given the multiple charities working these niches, it’s trivially easy to find one that doesn’t discriminate. I also won’t donate to [Neo-Nazi food banks](http://kycir.org/2017/09/20/inside-white-nationalists-longshot-plan-to-win-over-appalachia/), even if they somehow manage to pass out the rice and mayonnaise to people. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2017, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/belk-dept-stores-arent-allowing-salvation-army-kettles-this-christmas-any-opinions/803451/68 "2017-12-04T02:05:46Z")
There are several charities operating in my small city through which we often adopt a poor family and provide for them. Sally Ann isn’t the only game in any town, as far as I know. No one is saying you can’t support the homophobes if you don’t care about such things. But slagging people who do care about the mistreatment of others, especially by a ‘Christian’ charity, as haters is entirely and transparently disingenuous. Pretty sure you draw the line, based on your politics, in your lack of support for other organizations such as Planned Parenthood, despite the good works they also do. So why is it wrong for others to do the same. They had a good run, dressed in their Santa suits, in front of every store, a ubiquitous part of people’s Christmas tradition and giving. But now times have changed, people are more informed of the true nature of their organization. It’s not hating, it’s living the values you espouse. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2017, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/belk-dept-stores-arent-allowing-salvation-army-kettles-this-christmas-any-opinions/803451/69 "2017-12-04T02:42:51Z")
I donate to Oxfam. They’re a terrific world-wide charity that fights poverty & hunger. I also give to Heifer International, another global program that supports growth in communities in need. I support Child’s Play, which provides toys & books to childrens’ hospitals worldwide. And I support the Nature Conservancy, for environmental causes. I also support the World Wildlife Fund, because I can’t go around and apologize to each elephant personally. Alas. If I had more money, I’d probably donate to Planned Parenthood, Head Start, The Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation, Habit for Humanity and the Girl Scouts. The point is, there’s lots of excellent international charities doing good & important work. There are undoubtedly shelters and food pantries in every local community, as well, which could desperately need community support. There’s just no reason to go on supporting a charity with as many problematic outcomes as The Salvation Army. They may have done good work over the last century, but they simply aren’t equipped to go on doing good work for the future. As for the bellringers - I wish stores would ban _everyone_ who wants to solicit outside their stores. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2017, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/belk-dept-stores-arent-allowing-salvation-army-kettles-this-christmas-any-opinions/803451/70 "2017-12-04T04:27:53Z")
Some times there is nothing wrong with hating, even if we hate the sin, not the sinner. In this case the sin would be intolerance, not love. > [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Some do. The Girl Scouts, for instance, camp out in front of the supermarket trying to sell cookies. (And don’t get me started on that; only a tiny fraction of the money goes to the actual local troop.) That’s because the cookies aren’t obscenely over priced, like the nasty sugar encrusted popcorn sold by other organizations. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2017, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/belk-dept-stores-arent-allowing-salvation-army-kettles-this-christmas-any-opinions/803451/71 "2017-12-04T18:55:02Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > Wait, there are places with SA programs but no AA programs? That is hard to believe. > > (Not that I am the largest fan of AA either, but they seem to be everywhere in the US) AA doesn’t provide residential programs that I know of. > [@Ravenman](#): > > You could give gifts through Toys for Tots, seeing as how the Marine Corps is more supportive of civil rights than the Salvation Army. > > Except for the killing. The Marines are much better at that; but I’m excluding that from my definition of civil rights. And that’s why I would never give to Toys for Tots. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2017, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/belk-dept-stores-arent-allowing-salvation-army-kettles-this-christmas-any-opinions/803451/72 "2017-12-04T18:55:44Z")
Good for Belk. I don’t give to cults and I hate the sound of ringing bells. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2017, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/belk-dept-stores-arent-allowing-salvation-army-kettles-this-christmas-any-opinions/803451/73 "2017-12-04T19:32:30Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > The hate in here is incredible. Hey, it wasn’t us who started the hate; it was the Salvation Army. Yes, the SA does a lot to help the poor. But, they do it with a healthy does of moralizing and discrimination, based on their conservative Christian views. What the SA also is very good at is PR. They play up their support services to the general public, while downplaying their moral stance. As you’ve seen here, many people aren’t aware of their discriminatory views and practices – and I strongly suspect that many people who give to the SA (particularly in the Christmas buckets) aren’t even aware that it’s a church. If, once you’re aware of these things, you still feel that giving to the SA is the best way to support the needy in your area, that’s your choice. But, it’s very likely that there are other charities in your area which also do good, important work for the needy in your community, without that level of baggage. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2017, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/belk-dept-stores-arent-allowing-salvation-army-kettles-this-christmas-any-opinions/803451/74 "2017-12-04T20:24:38Z")
> [@gigi](#): > > AA doesn’t provide residential programs that I know of. Thanks for clarifying that, my reading comprehension was a fail on his post. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2017, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/belk-dept-stores-arent-allowing-salvation-army-kettles-this-christmas-any-opinions/803451/75 "2017-12-04T20:47:23Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > I simply want to support a charity that helps a lot of people with a wide variety of programs. > > I support other charities besides SA. There are a lot of groups out there making people’s lives better. Toys for Tots is a wonderful program that I also support. > > My focus is on helping people and doing what I can to make a small difference. Even it it’s only making sure a kid has a present to open on Christmas. Nobody is preventing you from supporting SA, but they are declining to let you delude yourself about what that support means about you. There are hundreds or thousands of other charities that do their good works without discriminating against innocent identity groups. [Here](https://www.givewell.org/charities/top-charities) is a resource for finding some of them, based on immediate help for people in the direst need. Full disclosure: if you didn’t know or guess, I am an American gay man, and I have lived from the superficially sweet but vile beneath the surface 50s to the present day where much of that vileness has been eradicated or is on the decline. SA to me crystalizes that vileness perfectly. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2017, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/belk-dept-stores-arent-allowing-salvation-army-kettles-this-christmas-any-opinions/803451/76 "2017-12-04T21:24:57Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Some do. The Girl Scouts, for instance, camp out in front of the supermarket trying to sell cookies. (And don’t get me started on that; only a tiny fraction of the money goes to the actual local troop.) That’s right. A lot of the money gets pooled- some goes directly to the troop, but a lot of it goes to the parent organization to help support troops that don’t have the money to buy tons of cookies or charge dues. It also goes to pay for camps and to provide scholarships to those camps. Those distributions are transparent and every troop knows about where the money is going. In fact, we teach math skills by discussing percentages and how much we get per box. Then we teach compassion by showing how we help less fortunate troops. ---
**Author:** ![cwthree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9de0a6/32.png) [@cwthree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cwthree)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2017, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/belk-dept-stores-arent-allowing-salvation-army-kettles-this-christmas-any-opinions/803451/77 "2017-12-04T22:43:59Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > My family won’t be Christmas Shopping at Belks this year. We just don’t feel comfortable patronizing Belks stores this year. Salvation Army is one of my main charities. I respect the work they do. If SA is one of your favorite charities, what is keeping you (and anyone else) from sending them a check, donating through the website, or going to one of their facilities and giving them money? Also, how does this detract from Belk’s ability to serve _you_? It’s not the store’s job to make it easy for you to donate to a specific charity. ---
**Author:** ![cwthree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9de0a6/32.png) [@cwthree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cwthree)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2017, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/belk-dept-stores-arent-allowing-salvation-army-kettles-this-christmas-any-opinions/803451/78 "2017-12-04T23:01:40Z")
It’s also worth noting that SA is \*not \*a charity. That is, they are not an organization constituted specifically to provide charity. They are a church that \*also \*provides charitable services. SA is a specific Christian denomination with its own interpretation of the Bible, and its members are adherents of SA doctrine. Because they are a church and not a registered charitable organization, they don’t have to disclose information, such as annual reports and 990 forms, that charitable organizations do. H4H \*is \*a charity. Its mission and purpose are informed by its leaders’ Christian faith, but H4H is not its own denomination. They accept volunteers of all faiths (or no faith at all). Belk’s is a secular business with nationwide presence. It doesn’t surprise me that they prefer to partner with an actual charity that imposes no religious requirement on its members or on the people who use its services, rather than with a church. ---
**Author:** ![ekedolphin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ekedolphin/32/10003_2.png) [@ekedolphin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ekedolphin)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/belk-dept-stores-arent-allowing-salvation-army-kettles-this-christmas-any-opinions/803451/79 "2017-12-05T03:17:35Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > The Salvation Army, for all their good works, are openly and vehemently anti gay. And more people know it every day. > > There are more worthy charities. Good for Belks. > > Get used to it, you’re gonna see it more and more! That’s what I came to say. I won’t donate to a charity that’s anti-gay. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/belk-dept-stores-arent-allowing-salvation-army-kettles-this-christmas-any-opinions/803451/80 "2017-12-05T18:33:00Z")
Fuck Salvation Army. The Wounded Warrior Project can suck a bag of assholes, too. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/belk-dept-stores-arent-allowing-salvation-army-kettles-this-christmas-any-opinions/803451.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/belk-dept-stores-arent-allowing-salvation-army-kettles-this-christmas-any-opinions/803451.md?page=5)