# Bemused question to Libertarian **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 19, 2004, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bemused-question-to-libertarian/235212 "2004-03-19T15:18:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2004, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bemused-question-to-libertarian/235212/1 "2004-03-19T15:18:56Z")
I made this thread so I wouldn’t hijack the other thread any further. In [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=245873&page=1&pp=50) **Libertarian** tactlessly suggested a way in which he’d sponsored me after making a snarky comment, and being told off. After explaining to him what my philosphy was as far as charity and “sponsorship” was, he still shows ignorance on the matter of applying tact. > [@](#): > > Originally posted by **Libertarian** Well, misunderstandings happen. They’re called disputes because people see things different ways. If you’re willing to start with a clean slate, I’m still willing to offer to sign you up if you will use the money to feed someone who is hungry and cannot afford to buy the food. Translation: Well, be a good girl, and march to my drums, and I’ll deign to give you aid. I stated more than once that I could, and would pay my own way if there was an alternative payment method. What part of that slipped by you? Are you always this tactless when dealing with others? Do you ever consider another person’s dignity at all? I ask these questions because even if I was asking for help, and did want it, I’d still not take such an offer because it was so badly presented. It’s tactless, and pretty arrogant too. What gives you the right to dictate what specific kind of charity works another does, just so they can get aid/sponsership from you? It’s as if no other kind of good works exist for you. If you are going to offer to sponser someone (to me, sponsering is making a deal with a person to help them out, in return for that person “earning” the help somehow) then at least acknowledge that they have a right to not be humilated by having you offer such a thing publicly from on high! Geniune questions for you to ponder, **Libertarian.** What if I’m “feeding” a different need? What if I’m helping a child who lost his mother February 29th, by showing him kindness, and getting him Easter gifts? (This being a way to console and comfort him through a holiday that he and his mother enjoyed together.) What if that’s all the money I can spare? What if I choose to go help out my friend’s husband pick up their house for several hours, because she’s had a nervous breakdown and is hospitalized? Are those works "good enough? Do good works in your mind always have to involve money, and empty stomachs? What about broken hearts, and despairing souls? My good works are just as valid as “buying some hungry person a sandwich” and deserve to be acknowledged as such! I don’t want to be repaid for doing such things, I feel it’s my duty as a member of the human race to help others. Either ease up/back down, or admit that you failed to give me proper acknowledgement. This doesn’t mean I want “petting” it just means I want it said that acts of kindness and consideration don’t have to take money to do, and they are valid ways to be charitable. All that said, I do hope you find some serenity, and that things work out well medically for you. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2004, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bemused-question-to-libertarian/235212/2 "2004-03-19T15:27:27Z")
Well, let me just settle this by accepting full and unconditional responsibility for the entire misunderstanding. I offer my apology for causing you what is obviously a great deal of distress. Assuming you will allow me to accept responsibility, and that you will accept my apology, we may begin with a clean slate (as I mentioned in one of the other two threads where you’re discussing this). I do not begrudge you doing whatever charitable acts you wish. But you have a problem, and I have a solution. Since you don’t have a credit card or a debit card, cannot find a bank you trust, and don’t want charity, I am willing to sign you up for SDMB if you will buy a $5.00 sandwich for someone who is hungry and cannot afford one. ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2004, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bemused-question-to-libertarian/235212/3 "2004-03-19T15:40:13Z")
**Libertarian** Let me try a more direct way to phrase this. All the “resources” (time, money, and energy) that I have at my disposal to do good works are already designated. In fact, I’ve exhausted myself trying to help out the bereaved family. I don’t have the money to spare to buy a sandwich, because the “extra” (Ha! I only have $565 a month to begin with) money I do have has already been allocated towards Easter gifts, this is money taken out over a 2 month period, maybe as much as $30 because I got Cadbury’s eggs for the rest of the kid’s family so they wouldn’t be jealous. This isn’t including the food dishes I “happened” to make too much of and gave to my friends so it “wouldn’t go to waste”. Those dishes cost extra money to make, I don’t usually eat so “rich”. I’ve spent my spare time helping comfort my dear friend, who is bereaved, and I plan on dropping by my other friend’s house to help clean it up because she’s had a nervous breakdown and is currently hospitalized. Her husband is epilectic, and has a heart condition and really can’t do a whole lot. I’ve already “spread myself thin” trying to help out these people, I don’t have much in the way of “reserves” left. This does not mean I don’t do “common” things like shooing the neighbor’s dog back into their yard and closing the fence, or other things like that. ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2004, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bemused-question-to-libertarian/235212/4 "2004-03-19T15:44:04Z")
Drat! Hit “reply” instead of preview! Here’s my closing statements: I can find a way to pay for a subscription, that’s not really the question. (I’ll give up and “extra”, I “induldge” in a fast food meal once a month, I can give that up.) The point is, I’ve already “spread myself thin” doing good works, I don’t need the extra burden of another work of charity put on me as a “price” to pay for membership of this board. It’s “cheaper” for me to just give up the fast food meal. I just need an alternative payment method so I can do this. ---
**Author:** ![Kal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9de053/32.png) [@Kal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kal)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2004, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bemused-question-to-libertarian/235212/5 "2004-03-19T16:00:40Z")
I’ll “pay” your “subscription” if you’d “just” stop putting “things” in quotation “marks”. ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2004, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bemused-question-to-libertarian/235212/6 "2004-03-19T16:06:03Z")
**Kal** Are you always so sweet? :rolleyes: Either post on the topic of the OP, or lurk. Drive by punctuation/grammer corrections are just as annoying as an indivdual poster’s quirks. ---
**Author:** ![Kal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9de053/32.png) [@Kal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kal)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2004, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bemused-question-to-libertarian/235212/7 "2004-03-19T16:15:59Z")
“Hugs” {{{{{{{{{{ **Zabali** }}}}}}}}}} ---
**Author:** ![Kal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9de053/32.png) [@Kal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kal)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2004, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bemused-question-to-libertarian/235212/8 "2004-03-19T16:18:22Z")
Okay, on topic: > [@](#): > > I just need an alternative payment method And you’ve got one - buy someone a sandwich. ---
**Author:** ![wakimika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f08c70/32.png) [@wakimika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wakimika)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2004, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bemused-question-to-libertarian/235212/9 "2004-03-19T16:24:13Z")
What the fuck is going on? This is happening here and there, all over the board. If you want to do a good deed, do it and do it privately. Don’t make other members prostate themselves in order to be showered by your benevolence. Jesus Christ! Use email or donate to a general fund. Some asshat in another thread wants his little potentials to email him and explain why he should sponsor them (in 100 words or less, probably.) It’s **five** lousy dollars. If you need your metaphorical dick stroked to engage in this brotherly act of sponsorship…I don’t know what, just don’t be a wanker. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2004, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bemused-question-to-libertarian/235212/10 "2004-03-19T16:28:46Z")
**Zabali\_Clawbane** Your assumption is wrong. \*\* Libertarian\*\* is not implying, nor assuming that your charitable works to date are lacking. He is assuming that _his own_ charity needs exercising. He has suggested that he will pay for your membership, so that you can give his charitable contribution to someone else. That way his charity is accomplished, and your quandary about Internet transactions is solved. Think of it as **Lib** buying a sandwich from Ebay, an having them contact you for delivery. There is no assumed insult, and two apologies to date. Tris ---
**Author:** ![garius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e19b73/32.png) [@garius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garius)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2004, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bemused-question-to-libertarian/235212/11 "2004-03-19T16:33:27Z")
you can buy me a sandwich - i’m hungry. nothing with cheese though, and preferably on brown bread. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2004, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bemused-question-to-libertarian/235212/12 "2004-03-19T16:52:51Z")
How about this then…[ul][li] **Zabali Clawbane** continues to do charitable work,[_] **Kal** eschews excessive punctuation,[_]I buy **garius** a sandwich on brown bread (either through Ebay from a London vendor, or **g** can simply travel to Atlanta and pick it up at the airport),[_]in return for which, **Lib** sponsors the next person willing to receive his sponsorship,[_] **Tris** lays some more wisdom on us at random intervals,[_] **wakimika** uses email for this type of thing,[_]and eventually enough people pay it forward that we all meet up at the other end[/ul][/li] [sub]Now, where’s that baby that needs cutting in half?[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2004, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bemused-question-to-libertarian/235212/13 "2004-03-19T16:58:14Z")
**Triskadecamus** I will try to articulate my thoughts concerning your statments about my “assumption”. First of all, let me state that I have a right to feel. I can also choose how I am going to act on my feelings, or even if it’s worth holding on to said feelings. I can only truly feel my own emotions completely, though I can empathize with others. I often base my opinions on both fact and also feeling. My opinions are also my own, to act on and express as long as they cause no harm to anyone else. My feelings are mine, I own them, they cannot be wrong as such. They can be disagreed with, but that does not make them wrong. That just means that the disagreeing person is an indivdual, with their own perspective. Notice, I don’t say the opposing feelings are wrong just because they are different from mine. That said, when **Libertarian** saw that I was offended, the graceful, tactful thing to do would be to apologize for the offense given, and then **drop the subject**! He did not do this, even after it was quite obvious that he was offending and insulting me. In fact, he has repeated the offensive offer more than once. That shows, that he either does not understand the nature of the offense given, or that he does not care, and wants to continue to be an ass. ---
**Author:** ![Genghis\_Bob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/45deac/32.png) [@Genghis\_Bob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Genghis_Bob)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2004, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bemused-question-to-libertarian/235212/14 "2004-03-19T17:16:24Z")
It looks to me that \*\*Libertarian \*\* is saying “I’ll pay your SDMB bill, if you’ll make my charitable contribution for me.” An even-up trade with no implied statement about anyone’s financial means or priorities. Sounds like an elegant solution to the problem, win-win-win. Since \*\*Libertarian \*\* is asking \*\*Zabali\_Clawbane \*\* to make his charitable donation for him, it seems only fair that he gives some input as to its direction - again, no statement or judgement about \*\*Zabali\_Clawbane’s \*\* own charitable giving. **Zabali\_Clawbane** , I don’t understand why you insist on taking offense where none was intended, but nonetheless has been apologized for repeatedly? Your feelings are indeed your feelings, but certainly your mind can realize that the hurt feelings are based on a mistaken assumption, and over-ride them? ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2004, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bemused-question-to-libertarian/235212/15 "2004-03-19T17:21:11Z")
**Zabali\_Clawbane** , I’m going to join the chorus that says you’ve misunderstood **Lib** ’s offer. Would you feel better about it if he, or someone else, gave you a mailing address to where you could send them $5 and they could use their credit card to pay your subscription? Or must you pay directly to feel good about it? ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2004, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bemused-question-to-libertarian/235212/16 "2004-03-19T17:24:38Z")
I have an idea. **Zabali** send **Lib** $5, and he signs you up. Problem solved, next. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2004, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bemused-question-to-libertarian/235212/17 "2004-03-19T17:25:17Z")
**Zabali\_Clawbane** Making assumptions is not always a bad thing. I am going to assume that you actually want a solution to your stated problem of not being able to pay because of payment transmission problems. That is an assumption, and is not intended to insult you. So, here is how we can solve that problem. You email me, at [Triskadecamus@hotmail.com](mailto:Triskadecamus@hotmail.com) and we spend the next month or so assuring ourselves that we are ordinary people, with real world problems. Then when you are willing to consider me close enough of a friend to allow me to help you out in some small matter, you send me your SDMB password. I log on to your account at an agreed upon time, keeping in mind the difference in our time zones. I log on, use my credit card, and your account, and sign you up for a year. Then you log back on, and change your password. Now, I am out five bucks, and a bit of time. That is not a problem for me, but I sense that you would find the five dollars part to be an unwanted obligation that you would feel, quite apart from my lack of concern. Not a problem. I suggest that you take five dollars, (or two pounds, sixty), and drop it into the hat of a good street musician, preferably jazz. I like to support the arts. See? It has nothing to do with my judgement of your prior charitable acts; in fact it isn’t even going to be your charitable act when you do it, it’s going to be my charitable act. You will simply be paying your bill. No one insulted anyone. We came up with an answer to a problem. Actually, **Lib** came up with it, but he won’t mind our using it. Tris ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2004, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bemused-question-to-libertarian/235212/18 "2004-03-19T17:39:03Z")
> [@wakimika](#): > > If you want to do a good deed, do it and do it privately. Don’t make other members prostate themselves in order to be showered by your benevolence. Jesus Christ! Use email or donate to a general fund. \ It’s **five** lousy dollars. If you need your metaphorical dick stroked to engage in this brotherly act of sponsorship…I don’t know what, just don’t be a wanker. That sums up one of my points. The other point is, he should have dropped the matter once he saw he’d offended, by not repeating the offer since I stated that it was _ **the offer** _ and the way it was presented which gave offense. Instead, he repeated it. That is not making amends for an offense given IMO. An apology, to paraphrase another poster is: 1. Stating that what you did was wrong. (Give details) 2. Apologizing for doing it. 3. State you won’t do it again, then keep your word. 4. Make amends when possible. Do you see where I’m coming from now? On preview, **Triskadecamus** thank you for your kind offer. I’ll probably end up talking to my parents, and seeing if they will let me charge it to their account, I can send them a post office money order. They can either log onto my account, or give me the info I need to charge it over the phone while I’m online. That is, if the SDMB does not allow for an alternative payment method. I would much prefer to send in the payment myself, without needing a middle man is all. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2004, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bemused-question-to-libertarian/235212/19 "2004-03-19T18:02:04Z")
> [@Zabali\_Clawbane](#): > > That said, when Libertarian saw that I was offended, the graceful, tactful thing to do would be to apologize for the offense given, and then drop the subject! He did not do this, even after it was quite obvious that he was offending and insulting me. In fact, he has repeated the offensive offer more than once. That shows, that he either does not understand the nature of the offense given, or that he does not care, and wants to continue to be an ass. But the thing is, you’re taking offense where none is given. It’s hardly fair to **Lib** to demand that he drop the subject, leaving you with the impression that you’ve been demeaned or impugned in some way. It’s a bit much to be complain about **Lib** ’s supposed lack of grace and tact in an ill-advised pit thread, after your own misunderstanding of the spirit of the offer led you to pitch a fit in the original thread. _preview_ > [@](#): > > That is not making amends for an offense given IMO. An apology, to paraphrase another poster is: > > 1. Stating that what you did was wrong. (Give details) > 2. Apologizing for doing it. > 3. State you won’t do it again, then keep your word. > 4. Make amends when possible. This can’t be stated emphatically enough: **Libertarian** gave no offense – _you took offense_. He has nothing to apologize for. You do. Grace and tact would guide you to have left this whole thing at simply saying > [@](#): > > I would much prefer to send in the payment myself, without needing a middle man is all. …and instead you’ve created a lot of unpleasantness for all concerned – including someone who offered a simple (and entirely non-offensive) solution to your molehill of a problem. Take a look at those four steps again. ---
**Author:** ![byter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e480ec/32.png) [@byter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/byter)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2004, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bemused-question-to-libertarian/235212/20 "2004-03-19T18:14:39Z")
> [@Zabali\_Clawbane](#): > > **Kal** Are you always so sweet? :rolleyes: Either post on the topic of the OP, or lurk. Drive by punctuation/grammer corrections are just as annoying as an indivdual poster’s quirks. Post on topic or lurk? He did post on topic. He was just pointing out what an insufferable twat the op is. Get over yourself. Your haughty, condescending posts are as irritating as any on this board. You want to give advice to people yet you can’t even take care of yourself. You don’t work, but you do eat and preach. You respond to any reproach to what you believe with 100 word strings of drivel. You married a teenager 10 years younger than yourself and you have to live with his parents because you can’t afford to take care of yourself. You run around with a group of teenage wannabe goths, and you all have your own secret language. I guess if I had your life, I’d be bitter too. :disgust: [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bemused-question-to-libertarian/235212.md?page=2)