# Ben Barnes to break silence on "60 Minutes" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 6, 2004, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-barnes-to-break-silence-on-60-minutes/263759 "2004-09-06T16:35:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2004, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-barnes-to-break-silence-on-60-minutes/263759/41 "2004-09-10T13:51:01Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > He’s still straddling the issue (he would’ve still voted to aurthorize the use of force even if he knew then everything he knows now). He needs to come out and say he made a mistake voting for the resolution, and force Bush to defend his decision. His hammering at Bush in the last few days rings a bit hollow to me. Why should he say it was a mistake when he made clear his intention at the time, and it has not changed since then: [http://www.independentsforkerry.org](http://www.independentsforkerry.org)…kerry-iraq.html > [@](#): > > As the President made clear earlier this week, “Approving this resolution does not mean that military action is imminent or unavoidable.” It means “America speaks with one voice.” > > Let me be clear, the vote I will give to the President is for one reason and one reason only: To disarm Iraq of weapons of mass destruction, if we cannot accomplish that objective through new, tough weapons inspections in joint concert with our allies. > > In giving the President this authority, I expect him to fulfill the commitments he has made to the American people in recent days–to work with the United Nations Security Council to adopt a new resolution setting out tough and immediate inspection requirements, and to act with our allies at our side if we have to disarm Saddam Hussein by force. If he fails to do so, I will be among the first to speak out. > > If we do wind up going to war with Iraq, it is imperative that we do so with others in the international community, unless there is a showing of a grave, imminent–and I emphasize “imminent”–threat to this country which requires the President to respond in a way that protects our immediate national security needs. He would be altering his position if he changed it now. He appears to be a man of consistency, despite what Fox News would incessantly pound into your head otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2004, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-barnes-to-break-silence-on-60-minutes/263759/42 "2004-09-10T13:56:06Z")
“When I hear this coming from Dick Cheney, who was a coward, who would not serve during the Vietnam War, it makes my blood boil,” Tom Harkin (D) Senator, Iowa. Well, **Bob the Tomato** , while Harkin called Cheney a coward I don’t see anything in the above quote that calls his patriotism or citizenship into question. Honorability? Well, okay. But I also think that it’s somewhat less than honorable to claim, as Cheney did, “I had other priorities,” while questioning Kerry’s war record. Just like Harkin. As a matter of fact, I rather like this, from your link: “He’ll be tough, but he’ll be tough with someone else’s kid’s blood,” said Harkin. And he’s done precisely that. All while not having his patriotism or citizenship called into question. A charge that I’ve seen come from **Mr. Moto** and nobody else. Usually to speak in a roundabout fashion for others. For instance: > [@Mr.Moto](#): > > You folks had better be careful. There’s lots of grumbling in the ranks. and, again: > [@](#): > > My dad was an Army reservist for six years in the Vietnam era. He’s not really happy about reservists and Guardsmen being portrayed as dishonorably dodging the draft. Likewise, deferments honestly obtatined under the law at the time, was made available to lots of young men. These men are now older, generally established voters, and wouldn’t like to have their patriotism questioned. and: > [@](#): > > The Democratic Party is playing with fire here, and I’m predicting that they’ll get burned badly by it. And I’m just wondering where these people are who are calling into question the patriotism of those who were Reservists and/or Guardsmen. Or who claim that they are somehow less than citizens due to their service. Because I’m sure as hell not seeing them. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2004, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-barnes-to-break-silence-on-60-minutes/263759/43 "2004-09-10T14:15:25Z")
Well, **Waste** , you haven’t been paying close enough attention then. We have this lovely quote from John Kerry, from a Fox News interview: > [@](#): > > I’ve never made any judgments about any choice somebody made about avoiding the draft, about going to Canada, going to jail, being a conscientious objector, going into the National Guard. Those are choices people make. This was seen, rightly or wrongly, as equating Guard service with fleeing to Canada or going to jail. This statement had a lot of Guard members, active and veterans both, very angry. Between idiotic remarks like this, and Kerry’s 1971 testimony before the Senate, it seems to me that the only military service he truly respects is that performed by him. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2004, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-barnes-to-break-silence-on-60-minutes/263759/44 "2004-09-10T14:55:17Z")
**Mr. Moto** , I am quite sure that the only people who were truly bothered by that statement were those who were only looking for an excuse for their pre-determined bias against Kerry. Kerry says that some people dodging the draft entered the Guard, not that everyone entering the Guard dodged the draft. However, Bush appears to have equated his entry into the Guard with other methods of dodging the draft: > [@W](#): > > I was not prepared to shoot my eardrum out with a shotgun in order to get a deferment. Nor was I willing to go to Canada. So I chose to better myself by learning how to fly airplanes. I wonder if all those people you know who were so angered by Kerry’s statement were equally angered by Bush’s. ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2004, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-barnes-to-break-silence-on-60-minutes/263759/45 "2004-09-10T15:34:40Z")
Well, **Moto** , I actually _was_ paying attention. And the single quotation that you’ve managed to provide in no way shape or form calls anyone’s patriotism or citizenship into question. As you’ve claimed is being done. As a matter of fact, the quote that you provided, ah hell, I’ll post it again: > [@John Kerry](#): > > I’ve never made any judgments about any choice somebody made about avoiding the draft, about going to Canada, going to jail, being a conscientious objector, going into the National Guard. Those are choices people make. Specifically states that Kerry doesn’t judge anyone based on their past. As opposed to your insinuation that he’s somehow calling into question the patriotism and citizenship of Reservists/Guardsmen. So, once more, where are these Democrats who are doing so? Surely you can provide me with scads of examples, since you’ve now stated in at least two threads that this is happening. If anyone thought that his quote (singular, not plural) was denigrating in any way, shape or form the patriotism of anyone, then they had made up their minds well in advance that Kerry was a bad, bad man. And with that being the case, there was no way in hell that they were ever going to vote for him anyway. And this: > [@](#): > > Between idiotic remarks like this, and Kerry’s 1971 testimony before the Senate, it seems to me that the only military service he truly respects is that performed by him. Seems pretty pissy on your part. Particularly from one who would never attack Kerry for his medals. Because he won them honorably and all like that. And in closing, what **Hentor the Barbarian** said inre those who get their knickers in a twist over what Kerry said (and what they _think_ he meant) not getting up in arms over Bush _fils_ and his statement. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2004, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-barnes-to-break-silence-on-60-minutes/263759/46 "2004-09-10T16:02:48Z")
Well, **Hentor** and **Waste** , that quote doesn’t help Bush much, I’ll admit. But it pales in contrast with Kerry’s antiwar activities and perceived anti-military voting record in the Senate when it comes to riling up folks. Maybe this fact escaped you both, but we’re in an election year. And elections are won by candidates who connect with the public and persuade it to vote for them. They’re not won by candidates who, though their statements may be accurate on points, neverless alienate voters through their rhetoric. John Kerry has had trouble connecting with veterans and winning them over. Bush has been more successful with this voting bloc. We’ll see who carries the veterans and Guardsmen in November, but I’m betting on Bush. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2004, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-barnes-to-break-silence-on-60-minutes/263759/47 "2004-09-10T16:12:22Z")
> [@Hentor the Barbarian](#): > > Why should he say it was a mistake when he made clear his intention at the time, and it has not changed since then: > > [http://www.independentsforkerry.org](http://www.independentsforkerry.org)…kerry-iraq.html I can’t get your link to work, although I do appreciate the quote. But it still doesn’t address the inconsistencies in his position. If WMDs were the only reason for the authorization, why does he say he would still vote for it even if he knew what we now know? If he would be the “among the first to speak out” against a misuse of the authorization, do we have any quotes from him in early '03 when it was clear that no broad coalition had been formed, and that inspections were terminated? I’ve asked this question before, and no one has produced any. I’m not saying they might not exist, I just don’t know of any. > [@](#): > > He would be altering his position if he changed it now. He appears to be a man of consistency, despite what Fox News would incessantly pound into your head otherwise. You and the other Kerry supporters can bury your colletive head in the sand if you like and say this is just Fox News spreading lies, but the fact is you hear confusion about Kerry’s position on Iraq all over the place. Chris Matthews of MSNBC, a clear Kerry supporter, brings this up regularly on Hardball. The authority to declare war is probably THE most important authority reserved to Congress by the constitution. And yet Kerry makes the vote that authorized the war against Iraq sound more like some Senate proccedural vote. Sentiment about the war in Iraq is currently about 50/50 in the US. Kerry has the opportunity to show his leadership skills by taking that sentiment more in disfavor by coming out strongly against the actions, including his own, that led to that war. Just saying, in effect, “I didn’t do it” is not enough. Don’t get me wrong here. I’m not so much talking about what Kerry should do on moral or ethical grounds. He has no more obligaction in that realm than any other Senator. I’m talking about what he should do tactically to turn his campaign around. It’s floundering right now, and he needs an issue that he can pound Bush with. Vietnam is not that issue. The economy is not that issue. The War on Terror is not that issue\*. The Iraq war IS that issue. \*he might be able to get some mileage out of this, but it would be a long, uphill battle since Bush gets significantly higher marks on this issue than Kerry and there really isn’t much time between now and November to turn that around. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2004, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-barnes-to-break-silence-on-60-minutes/263759/48 "2004-09-10T16:15:30Z")
Oh, I wouldn’t be surprised if Bush gets more votes among Guard members and veterans, given that they as a group, AFAIK, _always_ vote in greater numbers for Republicans. I think the main issue will be what proportion of these voters Kerry wins. I’ll see your wager, and bet you that Kerry wins a larger proportion than Gore, Clinton, Dukakis, Mondale… and I’ll offer you up the speculation that it is because more members of these groups than is typical see enough problems with the Republican candidate to outweigh their military and defense perceptions. Further, as to the latter bit about perceptions, it would be honorable if you would stop joining in the lies about Kerry’s votes for defense. I know, I know, you were couching it in terms of the “perception,” but that perception is only there because of the lies of the administration and Fox News. Please show the integrity that John McCain and, IIRC, Tommy Franks have shown on the topic. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2004, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-barnes-to-break-silence-on-60-minutes/263759/49 "2004-09-10T16:18:51Z")
Face facts, the whole Vietnam issue isn’t going to change anyone’s vote as it is now being played out. It’s degenerated into an arcane pit of accusation and counter-accusation, and most voters won’t bother trying to sort it out. The only way that Vietnam service is going to hurt either opponent at this point is if someone comes up with a good slogan. ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2004, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-barnes-to-break-silence-on-60-minutes/263759/50 "2004-09-10T16:32:29Z")
But see, **Moto** , I’m really wanting to see some of those quotes wherein Democrats claim that Reservists/Guardsmen are less than patriotic. Or that those who received deferments are second-class citizens. You remember, like you’ve claimed on this very thread. So, where are they? Because this is where I call you on those statements and you either provide instances where your claims are backed up (and not where people _might_ believe something that I’ve not encountered **any** one claiming to believe except you) or stand up, be a man, and admit that you are wrong. Or, spin something new like your latest line about Kerry’s testimony in 1971. So, if it’s all right with you, I’m just gonna be waiting right here. So you’ll be able to find me when you apologize for your slurs. Wouldn’t wanna make you look too hard. And this: > [@Mr. Moto](#): > > John Kerry has had trouble connecting with veterans and winning them over. Bush has been more successful with this voting bloc. > > We’ll see who carries the veterans and Guardsmen in November, but I’m betting on Bush. Comes as no surprise whatsoever. Most veterans align themselves with Republicans. Case in point would be you. And Kerry actually has veterans supporting him. More than seven, at last count. So he obviously **is** able to connect with veterans. And, once again, you show yourself to be less than honorable by bagging on Kerry’s service, but sanctimoniously saying that he won his decorations honorably. Or do you think that he won his decorations in some fashion other than his service? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2004, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-barnes-to-break-silence-on-60-minutes/263759/51 "2004-09-10T17:09:35Z")
Excuse me? Where have I ever bagged on his service? I’m hard on Kerry’s activities as an antiwar protester, and his Senate record. I have also noted on these boards falsehoods he has told. I have been nothing but respectful toward his genuine heroism, though, and you’d be hard pressed to find an example where I wasn’t deferential toward it. ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2004, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-barnes-to-break-silence-on-60-minutes/263759/52 "2004-09-10T17:21:17Z")
[Are the documents forged?](http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/007760.php) ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2004, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-barnes-to-break-silence-on-60-minutes/263759/53 "2004-09-10T18:20:06Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Excuse me? Where have I ever bagged on his service? So sorry, I understand why you may have missed it: > [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Between idiotic remarks like this, and Kerry’s 1971 testimony before the Senate, it seems to me that the only military service he truly respects is that performed by him. Of course, I’m sure that I misunderstood your crack about the only military service he respects being his own. So enlighten me, please. > [@](#): > > I’m hard on Kerry’s activities as an antiwar protester, and his Senate record. I have also noted on these boards falsehoods he has told. Yep. You’ve also claimed that there are people out there claiming that they are made to feel like second-class citizens due entirely to their deferments. Not to mention those Reservists/Guardsmen who are upset that they’re patriotism has been called into question. Again, consider this your invitation to either demonstrate that this is happening, or apologize for your smears. I’ll **still** be waiting right here. . . > [@](#): > > I have been nothing but respectful toward his genuine heroism, though, and you’d be hard pressed to find an example where I wasn’t deferential toward it. Right. His _heroism_. As opposed to his _service_, right? And I’m still waiting. . . ---
**Author:** ![Bob\_the\_Tomato](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c77e96/32.png) [@Bob\_the\_Tomato](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bob_the_Tomato)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2004, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-barnes-to-break-silence-on-60-minutes/263759/54 "2004-09-10T18:31:55Z")
> [@GLWasteful](#): > > But see, **Moto** , I’m really wanting to see some of those quotes wherein Democrats claim that Reservists/Guardsmen are less than patriotic. Or that those who received deferments are second-class citizens… Isn’t a coward a second class citizen, or worse? Or doesn’t that count? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2004, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-barnes-to-break-silence-on-60-minutes/263759/55 "2004-09-10T18:40:02Z")
From Kerry’s famous midnight speech: > [@](#): > > I will not have my commitment to defend this country questioned by those who refused to serve when they could have and who misled America into Iraq Is this really how he feels? That he’ll only entertain questions concerning his record from other combat veterans? And, if they’re the only people allowed to question his record, how does the “citizenship” of the rest of us hold up? Some more: > [@](#): > > The vice president even called me unfit for office last night," Kerry said. "I’ll leave it up to the voters whether five deferments makes someone more qualified to defend this nation than two tours of combat duty. So again, someone who got legal deferments isn’t fit to participate in the political process, the push and pull of rhetoric. Remember, the object of this exercise is to win votes. And John Kerry is asserting, through his rhetoric, that Guardsmen and people who sought deferments are to be scorned. Guardsmen and those who sought deferments in those years aren’t likely to appreciate such rhetoric, which was my original contention. As to my criticisms of Kerry, I hope you can all appreciate that I have always respected Kerry’s military service. It’s his “service” as a Senator and as a protester that I have issues with. I believe I’ve been above board in saying so. I’m not a stealth Bush voter. My political positions are right there in the open. ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2004, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-barnes-to-break-silence-on-60-minutes/263759/56 "2004-09-10T19:37:09Z")
> [@Bob the Tomato](#): > > Isn’t a coward a second class citizen, or worse? Or doesn’t that count? You’re joking, right? Calling someone a coward is equivalent to calling them a second-class citizen? Your views intrigue me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter. **Mr. Moto** : You are obviously incapable of recognizing what is meant. Not a problem, that’s why I’m here: > [@John Kerry](#): > > I will not have my commitment to defend this country questioned by those who refused to serve when they could have and who misled America into Iraq Now, you wonder if Kerry really thinks that his record can only be questioned by other veterans. That is patently absurd. As is your follow up question: > [@](#): > > And, if they’re the only people allowed to question his record, how does the “citizenship” of the rest of us hold up? See, what you’ve done here is make a leap that was in no way called for. Not at all surprising. After all, you have to try desperately to put words into Kerry’s mouth. But you know that. You’re not dumb enough to believe what you’ve laid out. And more: > [@](#): > > The vice president even called me unfit for office last night," Kerry said. "I’ll leave it up to the voters whether five deferments makes someone more qualified to defend this nation than two tours of combat duty. Now, someone capable of recognizing simple speech that doesn’t even involve any of that pesky nuance can recognize that Kerry is holding his service up as a comparison to that of Cheney. And as I’m sure you’re aware, Cheney did indeed have five deferments. However, for you to conflate that into: > [@](#): > > So again, someone who got legal deferments isn’t fit to participate in the political process, the push and pull of rhetoric. Is, once more, absurd. Of course, you knew _that_ too. Of course, there is olne thing on which we agree: > [@](#): > > . . .the object of this exercise is to win votes. However, when you claim: > [@](#): > > . . .John Kerry is asserting, through his rhetoric, that Guardsmen and people who sought deferments are to be scorned. Then you’ve made the object of this into painting the opposition with as broad a brush as possible. This comes as no surprise, since the candidate that you will be voting for has absolutely nothing to run on in the way of a record. Well, not one that he or you want to touch with a ten foot pole, anyway. So, while you, in your fervid imagination, claim that Kerry is shitting all over the patriotism and citizenship of Reservists/Guardsmen and/or those who received deferments, the rest of us are out here in the real world. Where the sun shines on lies and half-assed untruths, drying them out like dust. Dust which is blown away. Oh! And this: > [@](#): > > As to my criticisms of Kerry, I hope you can all appreciate that I have always respected Kerry’s military service. It’s his “service” as a Senator and as a protester that I have issues with. Would be great if only you hadn’t preceded it with this: > [@](#): > > . . .it seems to me that the only military service he truly respects is that performed by him. And the onus is once more on you to either show me the Democrats who are “playing with fire” inre the questioning of the patriotism and/or citizenship of people, or apologize for your baseless smears. I’ll still be waiting right here. . . ---
**Author:** ![Bob\_the\_Tomato](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c77e96/32.png) [@Bob\_the\_Tomato](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bob_the_Tomato)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2004, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-barnes-to-break-silence-on-60-minutes/263759/57 "2004-09-10T20:20:43Z")
> [@GLWasteful](#): > > You’re joking, right? Calling someone a coward is equivalent to calling them a second-class citizen? Your views intrigue me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter. Uh… I’m not sure that I know what you are talking about, but most people I know don’t consider calling someone a coward to be a nice thing. > [@](#): > > And the onus is once more on you to either show me the Democrats who are “playing with fire” inre the questioning of the patriotism and/or citizenship of people, or apologize for your baseless smears. > > I’ll still be waiting right here. . . Actualy it appears that the honus is upon everyone to **convince** you that the Dems are questioning patriotism or calling others second class citizens. Several have already shown it. You just don’t agree… I suspect that will be a hard thing to do. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2004, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-barnes-to-break-silence-on-60-minutes/263759/58 "2004-09-10T20:24:56Z")
I’m not apologizing for anything. My contention was that the overheated rhetoric regarding Guard service and deferments might, eventually, backfire on the folks spewing it. I have offered some examples, that are in fact divisive and are seen as such by many people in the Guard community, at least. Whether such statements are that big of a deal are, of course, a matter of opinion. My criticisms of Kerry aren’t “smears”. They’re legitimate criticisms of him and his campaign. Whether Kerry believes I’m allowed to make them, considering that I’m a mere veteran and not a war hero, is an interesting question as well. What this all boils down to is that Kerry hides behind his war hero status to avoid answering substantial questions about policy. He’s been doing it a long time. Whether he can sell this in one more race remains to be seen. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2004, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-barnes-to-break-silence-on-60-minutes/263759/59 "2004-09-10T20:40:25Z")
> [@ivylass](#): > > [Are the documents forged?](http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/007760.php) Apparently so, and lousy ones at that. That’s what CNN is reporting as I type. One dead giveaway that CNN highlighted was the elevated serif on 187[sup]th[/sup]. It should have been 187th. No typewriter from the 70’s could have done that superscript. Also, the family flatly denies CBS’s claim that it supplied the documents. ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2004, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-barnes-to-break-silence-on-60-minutes/263759/60 "2004-09-10T21:05:06Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Apparently so, and lousy ones at that. That’s what CNN is reporting as I type. One dead giveaway that CNN highlighted was the elevated serif on 187[sup]th[/sup]. It should have been 187th. No typewriter from the 70’s could have done that superscript. This “fact”, as well as several others related to the forgery allegations, is refuted quite explicitly [here](http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/9/10/34914/1603). An excerpt: > [@](#): > > “Documents back then didn’t have superscripted ‘th’ characters” > > That one was easy. Yes, many typewriter models had shift-combinations to create ‘th’, ‘nd’, and ‘rd’. This is most easily proven by looking at known-good documents in the Bush records, which indeed have superscripted ‘th’ characters interspersed throughout. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-barnes-to-break-silence-on-60-minutes/263759.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-barnes-to-break-silence-on-60-minutes/263759.md?page=4)