# Ben Carson: Abolish medicare and medicaid, replace them with $2000 vouchers **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 24, 2015, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-abolish-medicare-and-medicaid-replace-them-with-2000-vouchers/735617 "2015-10-24T14:35:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2015, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-abolish-medicare-and-medicaid-replace-them-with-2000-vouchers/735617/81 "2015-10-26T17:37:40Z")
It’s not that either. US health plans generally offered free annual physicals voluntarily, and under the ACA are now required to. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2015, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-abolish-medicare-and-medicaid-replace-them-with-2000-vouchers/735617/82 "2015-10-26T17:57:04Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > I wonder how much of the reduced healthcare costs of the countries with universal healthcare are because the citizens live healthier lifestyles? I’ve been to Switzerland and, for the post part, everyone looks pretty fit. Other European countries seem similar. I would not be surprised if their lifestyle consisted of more regular exercise and a healthier diet that lead to lower healthcare costs. That is, their lower costs may be due to a healthier population overall not incurring healthcare expenses rather than efficiencies in UHC versus private insurance. > > I’m not sure that UHC in the US would reduce costs as much. I still support UHC in the US because our current system is a mess and too many people fall through the cracks, but I don’t know if we’d see similar savings as other countries. > > I chuckle at these proposals for vouchers. Vouchers would only work for healthy people who don’t have trouble getting insurance anyway. A voucher won’t help the unemployed 50-year-old diabetic with cancer because no insurance company would agree to cover them and even if they did, the premiums would be astronomically expensive. The obesity rates in places like new Zealand or Australia are comparable to the US, only a minor difference. Per capita, the US has fewer smokers than France or Japan and the US is near. The bottom of smokers per capita in oecd nations, I think only two wealthy nations have fewer smokers, the rest have more than we do (sometimes double the rates). Despite it those countries spend half what we do on health care. The reason we spend more on health care is our system is designed to be expensive. An mri costs $1000 here but $98 in Japan. A hip replacement is 41k here and 7k in Spain. Japan could prescribe five times more mris than we do and still cost less than us. Also I don’t know if healthy living reduces medical expenses. Preventative care is a mixed bag for cost savings. Some studies finds it saves money, some say no difference, some say it costs more. People will still get sick and die with optimum lifestyles, so I am not sure. I can’t find the study, but I saw a short article once saying that healthy 65 year olds cost the Medicare system more than the sick ones over the course of a lifetime. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2015, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-abolish-medicare-and-medicaid-replace-them-with-2000-vouchers/735617/83 "2015-10-26T17:58:19Z")
> [@GrumpyBunny](#): > > That good? No, that not good. Bad. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2015, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-abolish-medicare-and-medicaid-replace-them-with-2000-vouchers/735617/84 "2015-10-26T18:07:17Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > As for treatments unavailable, NICE denies drugs all the time for failing to meet cost/benefit estimates base on quality life years remaining. Yes, a number is actually put on people’s lives. NICE doesn’t “deny” drugs, it simply doesn’t make it compulsory for NHS organisations to fund them, if prescribed. De facto, this makes it unlikely the NHS will cover them, admittedly, but it doesn’t mean they can’t be had if someone comes up with the money- which is as I understand it the situation in the USA. But don’t your private insurance companies rule out coverage, sometimes after the treatment? And aren’t insurance premiums predicated on complex actuarial calculations of, you know, putting numbers on people’s lives? It’s all about pooling risk and contributions, in all systems. The question is, which is the most effective way to do so, who decides, and on what criteria? The NHS leaves as much as possible - who gets which treatment and when - to the judgement of the clinical professionals within their overall budget limits. Those are set by government, with all the public political debate about that, and about the practical consequences of those decisions (where should the hospitals and clinics be, how many doctors and nurses do we need, or - for a current example - how can doctors’ contracts be amended to extend the availability of non-emergency services without working them into the ground?). It strikes me as a lot less opaque and complicated, and more open to democratic decision-making than the kinds of things I’ve seen described here and on other US messageboards. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2015, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-abolish-medicare-and-medicaid-replace-them-with-2000-vouchers/735617/85 "2015-10-27T21:44:58Z")
> [@Maserschmidt](#): > > Most misleading description of a graph ever. Did anyone else actually click on the link? I’d pit **Stringbean** for this, but sadly we’re already in the pit. What the graph illustrates is that the imprimatur of small government Ronald Reagan rebuilt trust in government despite his insistence we not be dependent on it. He’s not a great example of why small-government conservatives are destroying trust in government. Nor is Bush, Sr. I concede Jr. was trash. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2015, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-abolish-medicare-and-medicaid-replace-them-with-2000-vouchers/735617/86 "2015-10-27T21:46:34Z")
> [@42fish](#): > > Hey, **Stringbean** was a potential threat to **adaher** ’s ‘wrongest poster ever’ title. The man had to do something to tell the competition, “Back off. You’re mere amateurs at this.” Aww, that’s just a personal attack. You can do better to explain why R&D into medical technology won’t decline if we go to single-payer (which it obviously would as newer technology/pharmaceuticals become less profitable). ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2015, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-abolish-medicare-and-medicaid-replace-them-with-2000-vouchers/735617/87 "2015-10-27T21:56:19Z")
The difference would be made up by government grants to universities and other research facilities. The idea that pharmaceutical research must be market-driven is absurd. We’re making personal attacks because you’re saying stupid things. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2015, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-abolish-medicare-and-medicaid-replace-them-with-2000-vouchers/735617/88 "2015-10-27T23:35:22Z")
Well, we got Viagra now, see we can stop looking. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2015, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-abolish-medicare-and-medicaid-replace-them-with-2000-vouchers/735617/89 "2015-10-27T23:48:56Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > Aww, that’s just a personal attack. You can do better to explain why R&D into medical technology won’t decline if we go to single-payer (which it obviously would as newer technology/pharmaceuticals become less profitable). [http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2014/01/02/us-medical-research-spending-drops-while-asia-makes-gains](http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2014/01/02/us-medical-research-spending-drops-while-asia-makes-gains) > [@](#): > > In 2007, industry investment accounted for more than 60 percent of the United States’ research spending, at $83.3 billion. But by 2012, that number dropped by $12.9 billion, to $70.4 billion, while public investment – such as spending from the government, educational and research organizations and charities – held steady. Public spending in the United States actually increased from $48 billion in 2007 to $48.9 billion in 2012. The US is a world leader in medical R&D, making up 45% of the worlds spending. However as I said, about 40% of that spending is public which wouldn’t be affected. Of the $70 billion in private/industry R&D, even if it drops by 10-20 billion we could easily recoup that with the money saved from having a cheaper health care system in the form of subsides for private R&D (tax credits, subsidies, grants, awards, etc). Assume industry R&D drops by $20 billion if we changed our health system to be 1.5 trillion a year cheaper. Even if you had to recoup the entire cost via public funds, spending an extra $20 billion to save 1.5 trillion is a good deal. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2015, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-abolish-medicare-and-medicaid-replace-them-with-2000-vouchers/735617/90 "2015-10-28T02:42:25Z")
ISTM that even picking the entire $70B and letting the private sector take their ball and go home, should they be so inclined, would be a bargain, if it saves $1.5T. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2015, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-abolish-medicare-and-medicaid-replace-them-with-2000-vouchers/735617/91 "2015-10-28T04:25:34Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Vermont tried, the economics don’t work. You can’t go from our system to single payer because people are used to a certain level of care that can’t be provided with single payer. ACA is the bst possible UHC system the US can create. > > I like the idea of universal HSA accounts better though. [There’s a move to have Colorado go single payer and dump Obamacare for a state-run program.](http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/oct/25/coloradocare-would-replace-obamacare-with-statewid/) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2015, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-abolish-medicare-and-medicaid-replace-them-with-2000-vouchers/735617/92 "2015-10-28T04:43:37Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2015, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-abolish-medicare-and-medicaid-replace-them-with-2000-vouchers/735617/93 "2015-10-28T06:04:54Z")
Since American conservatives are wholly unable to convince Europeans and others who live under a form of single payer system that they’d be better off under an American style system, I don’t see how they can argue that this country moving towards that model makes us worse off. I just don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2015, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-abolish-medicare-and-medicaid-replace-them-with-2000-vouchers/735617/94 "2015-10-28T06:23:08Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > [http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2014/01/02/us-medical-research-spending-drops-while-asia-makes-gains](http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2014/01/02/us-medical-research-spending-drops-while-asia-makes-gains) > > The US is a world leader in medical R&D, making up 45% of the worlds spending. > > However as I said, about 40% of that spending is public which wouldn’t be affected. > > Of the $70 billion in private/industry R&D, even if it drops by 10-20 billion we could easily recoup that with the money saved from having a cheaper health care system in the form of subsides for private R&D (tax credits, subsidies, grants, awards, etc). > > Assume industry R&D drops by $20 billion if we changed our health system to be 1.5 trillion a year cheaper. Even if you had to recoup the entire cost via public funds, spending an extra $20 billion to save 1.5 trillion is a good deal. If a single payer system forbids drug marketing, like in Europe [we’d have plenty for R&D,](http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonkblog/wp/2015/02/11/big-pharmaceutical-companies-are-spending-far-more-on-marketing-than-research/) We would get to enjoy fewer ads warning us of the dangers of toenail fungus though. In addition, a lot of advances on drugs today come from startups which get bought by Big Pharma if they come up with something good. Nothing wrong with that model, but the founders of these companies are still going to make a fortune if they succeed, and so innovation should continue. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2015, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-abolish-medicare-and-medicaid-replace-them-with-2000-vouchers/735617/95 "2015-10-28T06:31:58Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Too much testing and over prescribing of drugs is definitely an issue, although that’s a tort problem as well as a profit motive problem. Single payer systems deal with that issue as well by not allowing big settlements. Tort reform and single payer go hand-in-hand. Do you have a cite for that tort reform comment? It’s not been the experience in Canada. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2015, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-abolish-medicare-and-medicaid-replace-them-with-2000-vouchers/735617/96 "2015-10-28T06:37:14Z")
Nobody sues anybody in Canada, that’s rude! ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2015, 9:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-abolish-medicare-and-medicaid-replace-them-with-2000-vouchers/735617/97 "2015-10-28T09:57:16Z")
I’ve not read the thread; just chiming in to ask: _ **How can any sentient American pay the slightest regard to anything Trump or Carson says?** _ 😕 They’re just the clowns sent out pre-show to get the audience in the mood to laugh at the headliners. Nobody here has any interest in what **Clothahump** or **Shodan** says, why make an exception for Trump or Carson? Yes, yes, I know they’re leading the polls but that just shows what a joke Republiopathy has become. (I won’t rule out that some billionaire is secretly prodding their campaigns along, giggling in hope that they will help cause Republiopathy to implode.) ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2015, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-abolish-medicare-and-medicaid-replace-them-with-2000-vouchers/735617/98 "2015-10-28T11:34:04Z")
How about we abolish Ben Carson and Donald Trump and replace them with sane candidates? ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2015, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-abolish-medicare-and-medicaid-replace-them-with-2000-vouchers/735617/99 "2015-10-28T11:50:29Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > If a single payer system forbids drug marketing, like in Europe [we’d have plenty for R&D,](http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonkblog/wp/2015/02/11/big-pharmaceutical-companies-are-spending-far-more-on-marketing-than-research/) We would get to enjoy fewer ads warning us of the dangers of toenail fungus though. We get those too, and plenty for indigestion, hay fever, cold and flu remedies and so on, in their due seasons. I suspect there is less TV advertising overall anyway, and certainly no advertising of prescription-only medicines (though occasionally disguised adverts for “information services” about particular conditions, but here too I think the advertising industry regulates itself quite tightly). It may be, too, that the old attitude of trusting the doctor interacts with the NHS’s position as the dominant customer for prescription-only medicines (which means they try to hold prices down) to reduce the likelihood of such advertising having much success for the pharma companies. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2015, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-abolish-medicare-and-medicaid-replace-them-with-2000-vouchers/735617/100 "2015-10-28T17:53:15Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > How about we abolish Ben Carson and Donald Trump and replace them with sane candidates? Okay. Abolish RW Media and stop growing generations of people who are afraid and misinformed, and the problem should clear up in 20-40 years. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-abolish-medicare-and-medicaid-replace-them-with-2000-vouchers/735617.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-abolish-medicare-and-medicaid-replace-them-with-2000-vouchers/735617.md?page=6)