# Ben Carson for President thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [August 31, 2015, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554 "2015-08-31T22:58:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![GrandWino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grandwino/32/67_2.png) [@GrandWino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrandWino)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2015, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554/401 "2015-11-06T21:25:37Z")
> [@Donald\_Rump](#): > > I agree with this too. > > Ben Carson should be brought down by his total lack of qualification to be president and the kooky things he says on a pretty much daily basis. I expect that will happen in time. But the accusation that he “fabricated” the West Point story is pretty weak. For once I actually agree with Ben Shapiro. Is it still just an accusation if Carson’s camp admitted that it was fabricated? ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2015, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554/402 "2015-11-06T21:32:29Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > Wait, so it’s no big deal to have absolutely loony beliefs about science, history, and economics, but embellishing your childhood biography is what kills you? > > If I live to be a thousand, I will never understand people. But you’d get to experience one-fifth of the history of the universe! ---
**Author:** ![Donald\_Rump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Donald\_Rump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donald_Rump)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2015, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554/403 "2015-11-06T21:39:07Z")
> [@GrandWino](#): > > Is it still just an accusation if Carson’s camp admitted that it was fabricated? “Fabricated” was Politico’s characterization, not the campaign’s. That’s doesn’t mean it wasn’t fabricated, of course. It just means that the campaign has not made such an admission. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2015, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554/404 "2015-11-06T21:44:28Z")
Hell, the fact that he may be an out-and-out liar is a net _plus_ as far as I’m concerned. If he’s an out-and-out liar, maybe he’s lying about his nutbar beliefs, and is just saying crazy stuff to score political points! I’d rather have a liar than a nutbar as President. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2015, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554/405 "2015-11-06T21:46:11Z")
Get deep enough into semantics, you can twist it. Went to the Medal of Honor winner event, met General Westmoreland. Did he explicitly say they were the same night? Dined with Westmoreland? OK, how many other people were dining at the same time? Had a conversation with Westmoreland, who suggested he go to West Point. “General, this is young Ben Carson, an outstanding ROTC student from Detroit.” “Well, young man, you should go to West Point.” Is that an offer, or a suggestion, or a mere pleasantry? And if you interpret it as an offer (which a young man might, if he were ill informed), then he was offered a scholarship to West Point, since that’s all West Point has. Given his financial constraints, he most likely thought of free tuition, room and board as a scholarship. (Which marginally brings in that whole “ten dollars to apply” thing. _All_ the major schools he wanted to apply to charged ten dollars for an application? Ten? Huh?) Still, with a bit of stretching and some excruciatingly precise semantic distinctions he didn’t so much lie as place some carefully selected dots while expecting them to be connected in a manner which would lead you to think he was offered a scholarship to West Point by General Westmoreland, and so on. (I know you are impressed with my skills at semantic stretching, but I must advise that I studied a master of the art. Who’s name I will not mention for fear of offending his modesty…) ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2015, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554/406 "2015-11-06T21:53:59Z")
looks like this thread’s pages will not be to infinity after all… ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2015, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554/407 "2015-11-06T21:56:41Z")
If he sews his lips shut… ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Lowry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Sam\_Lowry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Lowry)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2015, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554/408 "2015-11-06T21:58:59Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Get deep enough into semantics, you can twist it. > > Went to the Medal of Honor winner event, met General Westmoreland. Did he explicitly say they were the same night? Dined with Westmoreland? OK, how many other people were dining at the same time? Had a conversation with Westmoreland, who suggested he go to West Point. > > “General, this is young Ben Carson, an outstanding ROTC student from Detroit.” > “Well, young man, you should go to West Point.” > > Is that an offer, or a suggestion, or a mere pleasantry? And if you interpret it as an offer (which a young man might, if he were ill informed), then he was offered a scholarship to West Point, since that’s all West Point has. Given his financial constraints, he most likely thought of free tuition, room and board as a scholarship. > > (Which marginally brings in that whole “ten dollars to apply” thing. _All_ the major schools he applied to charged ten dollars for an application? Ten? Huh?) > > Still, with a bit of stretching and some excruciatingly precise semantic distinctions he didn’t so much as lie as place some carefully selected dots while expecting them to be connected in a manner which would lead you to think he was offered a scholarship to West Point by General Westmoreland, and so on. > > (I know you are impressed with my skills at semantic stretching, but I must advise that I studied a master of the art. Who’s name I will not mention for fear of offending his modesty…) Ben Carson is a crazy person, and I’m far from a supporter, but it doesn’t really sound like it takes that much stretching to me. [Here’s what his campaign manager says in the article:](http://www.politico.com/story/2015/11/ben-carson-west-point-215598) > [@](#): > > “Dr. Carson was the top ROTC student in the City of Detroit,” campaign manager Barry Bennett wrote in an email to POLITICO. “In that role he was invited to meet General Westmoreland. He believes it was at a banquet. He can’t remember with specificity their brief conversation but it centered around Dr. Carson’s performance as ROTC City Executive Officer.” > > “He was introduced to folks from West Point by his ROTC Supervisors,” Bennett added. “They told him they could help him get an appointment based on his grades and performance in ROTC. He considered it but in the end did not seek admission.” It doesn’t sound like a crazy fabrication, like someone on the second string on the JV football team saying that they had a full scholarship offer to go to UCLA. It’s a combination of slight misrembering and exaggeration. I’ve heard plenty of stories that are more distorted. I think his plagiarism in his other book should be a bigger deal than this, but no one seems too bothered by that. I don’t think this story alone will bring him down. I’d guess that there will be a significant number of supporters who will feel that this is another unreasonable attack by the liberal media. However, I do think this highlights how he’s had zero political experience. I looked on Twitter and saw some tweets by conservatives who weren’t bothered by the story, but think that he should have started going for a lower office before working his way up to president. If he had ran for representative or something, all this stuff would have been vetted then and not as big of a deal now. I think more people like the idea of an outsider in theory, but as the election goes along will be less enthused about that and like a bit more someone who has at least some experience. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2015, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554/409 "2015-11-07T00:50:11Z")
> [@Lantern](#): > > This seems to be about the semantics of “scholarship” and about something that happened to him when he was 17 which he may easily have mis-remembered or misunderstood. Yeah, but he was ~39 when he wrote the book that described that episode. So he had the benefit of a couple of decades of adult life as a lens to interpret the experience through, and be aware that he didn’t get a ‘full scholarship’ to West Point, but rather had a conversation with General Westmoreland about the possibility of one. Also, this wasn’t some casual, offhand remark - this was a _book._ His _autobiography._ > [@](#): > > His candidacy is ludicrous but I don’t think this will kill it or even seriously hurt it. However he is clearly facing increased scrutiny which should tell us something about how robust his support is. Even as the wingnuts are trying to justify this to each other, I think this still is going to hurt. His main asset was his supposed honesty, and this has now been called into question a couple of times in the past week and a half, between this and the Mannatech business. > [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > Does anyone here care that Clinton lied about coming under sniper fire? Obviously, political attachment and fervor can lead any fans to deem something minor enough to overlook. A lot of us didn’t overlook it at the time, but even those of us who were for Obama were mostly of the feeling that this was more a ridiculous thing to say than a career-killer. And now it’s nearly 8 years later, and the statute of limitations on that stupid remark has run, unless you’re going to hold every idiotic thing said by every politician ever against them like it was yesterday. I’m more bothered by Hillary’s saying within the last year or so that “Henry Kissinger is a friend of mine.” (And how about that Albert Speer, was he a great guy or what?) But like with any person - politician or not - I’m going to consider the whole person. I think I can trust Hillary’s competence far more than Bernie’s, let alone any of the Republicans. And i can trust any of the remaining Dem candidates to have a far better idea of what direction to take this country in than any of the GOP guys, who generally don’t even believe that we need to do anything about global warming, if they even believe it’s happening. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2015, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554/410 "2015-11-07T05:40:08Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > I’m more bothered by Hillary’s saying within the last year or so that “Henry Kissinger is a friend of mine.” (And how about that Albert Speer, was he a great guy or what?) Kissinger is a charming man and highly influential thinker. His proteges continue to hold influence in the diminishing sane wing of the Republican Party. Yes. I said that. The guy who bombed Hanoi is far more moderate than the neo-con dead enders who are itching to invade Iran. Scowcroft, Rice, Haig and George Schultz are a few examples. It wouldn’t surprise me if 5 degrees of Henry Kissinger wasn’t a thing. ---
**Author:** ![CGav8r](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/34f0e0/32.png) [@CGav8r](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CGav8r)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2015, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554/411 "2015-11-07T12:07:27Z")
I think the West Point thing is just him not understanding that there is a wide gulf between a senior or general officer saying you should apply, you’d get in for a free ride and actually applying, getting a Congressional nomination, and getting in. Just a misunderstanding, and can be explained away as such. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2015, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554/412 "2015-11-07T13:07:36Z")
“No. Again, there you go with sensationalism,” he said angrily. “That’s what you try to do. You hope somehow that will resonate with people who don’t think for themselves. I’ve got news for you, people are a lot smarter than you think they are, and they know exactly what I’m talking about.” _raises hand_ Hi Ben, smart guy here… I have no idea what you’re talking about. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2015, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554/413 "2015-11-07T13:33:10Z")
> [@CGav8r](#): > > I think the West Point thing is just him not understanding that there is a wide gulf between a senior or general officer saying you should apply, you’d get in for a free ride and actually applying, getting a Congressional nomination, and getting in. Just a misunderstanding, and can be explained away as such. Again, it’s one thing to be confused about that when you’re 17 and in high school. It’s a totally different thing to still be confused about that when you’re looking back on it from the vantage point of being 40 years old. From that perspective, you have to know that you never had any interaction with West Point. All you had was a conversation with a general. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2015, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554/414 "2015-11-07T14:28:05Z")
> [@CGav8r](#): > > I think the West Point thing is just him not understanding that there is a wide gulf between a senior or general officer saying you should apply, you’d get in for a free ride and actually applying, getting a Congressional nomination, and getting in. Just a misunderstanding, and can be explained away as such. Wouldn’t that sort of thing come up as part of being in ROTC? ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2015, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554/415 "2015-11-07T14:43:51Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > “No. Again, there you go with sensationalism,” he said angrily. “That’s what you try to do. You hope somehow that will resonate with people who don’t think for themselves. I’ve got news for you, people are a lot smarter than you think they are, and they know exactly what I’m talking about.” > _raises hand_ > > Hi Ben, smart guy here… I have no idea what you’re talking about. “. . .people who don’t think for themselves”? Isn’t that his base? ---
**Author:** ![Oly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oly/32/8255_2.png) [@Oly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oly)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2015, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554/416 "2015-11-07T15:10:37Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by TonySinclair View Post > Wait, so it’s no big deal to have absolutely loony beliefs about science, history, and economics, but embellishing your childhood biography is what kills you? > > If I live to be a thousand, I will never understand people. > [@JKellyMap](#): > > But you’d get to experience one-fifth of the history of the universe! And you’d outlive Noah by 50 years! I find it interesting that, what with all the heretofore nut jumble musings that have issued from his oris, something resembling a capital S _Scandle_ first starts to dog him only _after_ he overtakes Trump in the polls. Just sayin… ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2015, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554/417 "2015-11-07T15:22:49Z")
Well, actually, nothing’s really dented Carson yet, but we’ll see if the childhood biography scandal gets him. It wouldn’t sink other candidates, but Carson’s appeal is his honesty. Call that into question and there’s nothing else there. ---
**Author:** ![DinoR](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dinor/32/2821_2.png) [@DinoR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DinoR)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2015, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554/418 "2015-11-07T15:24:50Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Wouldn’t that sort of thing come up as part of being in ROTC? Not clearly. His leadership in Junior ROTC would have been NCOs. Westmoreland would have had strap hangers and bag carriers far above Carson’s perception of military reality at that point. Imagine an intern at Apple having a conversation with Steve Jobs about a job opening after graduation. Then throw in a culture that’s more hierarchical and leaders have even more relative power than civilian leaders on top of it. Carson’s training would have reinforced his misunderstanding more than reduced it at that point. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2015, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554/419 "2015-11-07T17:04:02Z")
> [@CGav8r](#): > > I think the West Point thing is just him not understanding that there is a wide gulf between a senior or general officer saying you should apply, you’d get in for a free ride and actually applying, getting a Congressional nomination, and getting in. Just a misunderstanding, and can be explained away as such. That can, with some effort, be explained away; but that was not the only reason Carson is having honesty issues. > **[Did Ben Carson Meet With General Westmoreland?](https://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/11/06/1445974/-Did-Ben-Carson-Meet-With-General-Westmoreland)** > > It turned out that one of the key details of Ben Carson's life story -- his alleged admission to West Point -- was not true. > > The academy has occupied a central place in Carson’s tale for years. ... > [@](#): > > However, his defenders tried to rescue Dr. Carson’s story by saying that sometime between May 23rd and 26th, 1969, he met with General William Westmoreland. > > [QUOTE=Politico] > “Dr. Carson was the top ROTC student in the City of Detroit,” campaign manager Barry Bennett wrote in an email to POLITICO. “In that role he was invited to meet General Westmoreland. He believes it was at a banquet. He can’t remember with specificity their brief conversation but it centered around Dr. Carson’s performance as ROTC City Executive Officer.” > > ``` > “He was introduced to folks from West Point by his ROTC Supervisors,” Bennett added. “They told him they could help him get an appointment based on his grades and performance in ROTC. He considered it but in the end did not seek admission.” > > ``` However, records produced by the US Army show that General Westmoreland was not in Detroit on May 23rd, 24th, 26th, and 27th, but was in Washington keeping a low profile and conducting meetings along with making a trip to Massachusetts and Vermont. [/QUOTE] So, Westmoreland was not there to meed Carson, to be fair the article does point that Westmoreland did go to Detroit in February, but then the nice picture of the meet taking place in a Memorial Day Parade does not work. > **[Carson’s Westmoreland story doesn’t match records](https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/politics/2015/11/06/carsons-westmoreland-story-match-records/75328960/)** > > Records, Detroit News report show Westmoreland was in Detroit in February 1969 for dinner honoring Vietnam soldier > [@](#): > > Parade ‘wonderful’ > > In the book, Carson details how he excelled at ROTC military training from 10th grade to his senior year when he became a colonel and “executive officer over all (Detroit) city schools.” > > Carson said the Memorial Day parade march capped his senior year in high school. > > “To make it more wonderful, we had important visitors that day,” Carson wrote. > > “Two soldiers who had won the Congressional Medal of Honor in Viet Nam were present. More exciting to me, General William Westmoreland (very prominent in the Viet Nam war) attended with an impressive entourage.” > > Carson wrote that his ROTC instructor — identified as Sgt. Hunt — introduced him to Westmoreland “and I had dinner with him and the Congressional Medal winners.” > > “Later I was offered a full scholarship to West Point,” Carson said. IMHO, unnecessary padding to make it look more interesting in a book, but this was not supposed to be a book of fiction but a biographical one. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2015, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554/420 "2015-11-07T17:04:25Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Well, actually, nothing’s really dented Carson yet It has too. In the polls that RCP includes in its average were taken entirely since the last Republican debate, Carson’s behind Trump again, both nationally and in Iowa. (Fox News and Quinnipiac nationally; CNN/ORC, PPP, KBUR, and Gravis in Iowa. Dates between 10/29 and 11/4.) > [@](#): > > Carson’s appeal is his honesty. Call that into question and there’s nothing else there. Which pretty much says it all. There are lots of honest people in the U.S., but the vast majority of them have no business being President: competence matters, and knowing the territory matters. If “there’s nothing else there” besides his honesty (AFAIAC he doesn’t even have that), then he had no business running. Hopefully his absence of honesty will be his downfall, but it shouldn’t have taken that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554.md?page=22)