# Ben Carson for President thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [August 31, 2015, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554 "2015-08-31T22:58:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 25
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2015, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554/481 "2015-11-09T01:52:06Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > I’d be willing to give him the benefit of the doubt that he spoke with Westmoreland on a similar occasion (a few months earlier, IIRC, too lazy to do a few clicks to look it up :)) that Westmoreland was in Detroit. > > But (responding more to **adaher** now) as DSeid said just a few posts earlier, it’s one thing for a 17 year old to misinterpret that conversation as an offer of a ‘full scholarship’ to the U.S. Military Academy. It’s another thing for a 40 year old man, reflecting on his past as he writes his autobiography, to be similarly deluded. I can fully accept that at some point some white guy with silver hair and dark eyebrows said he’d be a shoo-in for the Point. Perfectly believable. And maybe it was Westmoreland. Weirder things have happened. And the Millerites I’ve known, though pleasant people, have tended so far toward the Utterly Naive side of the spectrum that not only misunderstanding it then but also now is not out of the question. My problem is with somebody age 39 who had been in school until what? ten years before? having enough chutzpah to write an autobiography. What life experience had he to inspire us? What wisdom had he accrued that was worth sharing? Very little, since most of his life was spent with his nose in a textbook or a corpse or someone’s brain. Thus the need for padding. Inspirational padding. It was in a book hardly anybody, in raw numbers, would read (it’s not like he was going to run for president!), and those that did would be used to inspirational stories where the point was not the literal truth of the story but the meaning of the story, like the parables of Jesus. Except some people are so simple and naive that even parables must be true\*, and their own altar call stories are repeated so many times that they become true in their heads. - - “The Good Samaritan’s name? I dunno–let’s call him Seth. Of course I’m making that up. He wasn’t real. It’s just a story to show how even people you think are bad can have some good qualities, and how you can’t allow your prejudices to become your reality. He could’ve been a Roman or an Egyptian; I just saw some Jews messing with a Samaritan for no reason and it struck me as a good basis for a parable. What was the traveler’s name? What would you like it to be? Y’see, it doesn’t matter because IT’S JUST A STORY! God, crucifixion would be better than question time with you idiots!”\*\* \*\* - It’s like when we showed _Billy Elliot_ at church. A number of the old dears were convinced it was based on a true story, when in fact it was based on _The Jazz Singer_, just like 25% of all movies that came out of Hollywood since 1927. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2015, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554/482 "2015-11-09T03:42:39Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > OK he managed to endorse statehood and say we’re an asset to the USA, without embarassing himself or his hosts in the speech. I’m all for Puerto Rican statehood, but, **is** PR an asset to the USA? Serious question. My understanding was that it’s a drain economically. (Like many red states.) ---
**Author:** ![Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kolak_of_twilo/32/73_2.png) [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolak_of_Twilo)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2015, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554/483 "2015-11-09T04:53:49Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > It was a piece of salvation glurge cooked up for evangelical audiences. To anyone with the barest amount of common sense, the story was ludicrous on its face. I grew up in a household belonging to a mainline church and this stuff is absolutely alien to me. Oh I recognized it was exactly that. I grew up in a fundie household and have seen this type of crazy all my life. My point is the Westmoreland story isn’t as easily shown to be ridiculous and a pile of BS, even though it clearly is. This psych class story is one that can be easily shown to be made up. I doubt his hardcore fans will care much but I would think some of his fanboys and girls, like the one in this thread, would have a more difficult time handwaving this story away. > [@Ukulele\_Ike](#): > > The Yale Library, which is pretty good at keeping records, has already stated that the class never existed. Yep, that is mentioned in the WSJ article I linked to in my post. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2015, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554/484 "2015-11-09T04:59:32Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I’m all for Puerto Rican statehood, but, **is** PR an asset to the USA? Serious question. My understanding was that it’s a drain economically. (Like many red states.) Puerto Rico is a cultural asset. It is poor compared to the states. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2015, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554/485 "2015-11-09T05:44:55Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > My problem is with somebody age 39 who had been in school until what? ten years before? having enough chutzpah to write an autobiography. What life experience had he to inspire us? What wisdom had he accrued that was worth sharing? Very little, since most of his life was spent with his nose in a textbook or a corpse or someone’s brain. Thus the need for padding. Inspirational padding. Maybe. [This post](http://www.bradford-delong.com/2015/11/ben-carson-grifter-delusional-or-delusional-grifter.html#more) rounds up the quotes and asks whether Carson is delusional, a grifter, or a delusional grifter. I get the sense that he’s been racking up speaking fees based on his life story for years now, so this doesn’t look like mere corner cutting. A commenter in the above link has another reasonable take: [INDENT]He’s a bullshit artist. Everyone’s met someone like him in high school. When he talks what’s important is not the truth or falsity of his statements, but whether they reflect well on him and fuel his self-regard. [/INDENT] I say grifters gotta grift. What blows my mind is his audience: to me _Carson doesn’t appear all that good at this_. We’ve seen more persuasive trolls on this message board. > [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](#): > > Oh I recognized it was exactly that. I grew up in a fundie household and have seen this type of crazy all my life. My point is the Westmoreland story isn’t as easily shown to be ridiculous and a pile of BS, even though it clearly is. This psych class story is one that can be easily shown to be made up. I doubt his hardcore fans will care much but I would think some of his fanboys and girls, like the one in this thread, would have a more difficult time handwaving this story away. I’m a big believer in ecumenicism. Set the pin dancing wrangling aside, roll up your sleeves, and do God’s work. But some of this stuff is just toxic, and it seems that the suckers may have attained some sort of critical mass. I can only shake my head. ## Consider the amount of bad advice embedded in Carson’s homilies. Wait for $10 bills to rain on you. Don’t trust those folks at Yale: 149 out of 150 are dishonest. I find that offensive and frankly off the mark: of the two top colleges in the nation, Harvard is known for pumping out businessfolk, while Yale’s alumni are successful but not necessarily in a monetary way. Oh jeez, I’m just getting sucked into it now: the story was ludicrous in any setting. My point is that there’s a special place in hell for conceited dispensers of bad advice. **Well that was a drag…** …so let’s talk about Puerto Rico! I think it’s an asset to the US, to the extent that it is a bridge to Latin America, a multi-continent with huge growth opportunities. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2015, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554/486 "2015-11-09T10:52:07Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > We’ve seen more persuasive trolls on this message board. Yeah, but that’s just natural selection in action! We’re a tougher crowd than the sort of people (evangelical Christians) who’ve been Ben Carson’s target audience all these years. > [@](#): > > My point is that there’s a special place in hell for conceited dispensers of bad advice. Absolutely. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2015, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554/487 "2015-11-09T10:57:36Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > Reading the piece about the hoax is interesting. > > Apparently The Yale RECORD (the campus humor magazine) printed a fake edition of The Yale DAILY (the campus newspaper). Included in the fake news articles was an announcement that some psych exams had been destroyed and a retest would be offered at 7:30 in the evening. The humor magazine staff went so far as to actually stage a fake exam for any suckers who actually showed up. > > So Ben Carson may indeed have taken a fake psych exam while he was at Yale. However, I fail to see why falling for a college prank is evidence of his upstanding character. More like his gullibility. [It gets even better:](http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2015/11/paging-garry-trudeau) Garry Trudeau of _Doonesbury_ fame was one of the co-editors of the Record in 1970. As one of the commenters at the link (not me, alas!) said, “Carson’s claim to fame at Yale: I was punked by Garry Trudeau. Awesome.” Awesome indeed. I can only hope that Trudeau figures out a way to turn this into a week’s worth of _Doonesbury_ strips. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2015, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554/488 "2015-11-09T12:51:08Z")
[Son of a gun! Ben Carson’s right about pyramids being full of food.](https://www.google.com/search?q=food+pyramid&biw=1280&bih=810&tbm=isch&imgil=S2aLw_xjLwESxM%253A%253BmuDqd3aiX4lYvM%253Bhttps%25253A%25252F%25252Fen.wikipedia.org%25252Fwiki%25252FFood_pyramid_(nutrition)&source=iu&pf=m&fir=S2aLw_xjLwESxM%253A%252CmuDqd3aiX4lYvM%252C_&usg= __UPriWkVbTbsE2_PGoRiHssWbh1I%3D#imgrc=S2aLw_xjLwESxM%3A&usg=__ UPriWkVbTbsE2_PGoRiHssWbh1I%3D) Regarding West Point, I’ll give Carson the benefit of the doubt and say it’s possible that he met Westmoreland, but was incorrect about the year and/or date. Maybe he bumped into him sometime. Maybe Westmoreland told him “with your grades, you’d be a shoo-in to get into West Point”. I can see that happening. But as a professional autobiographer, Carson should have gotten his facts straight. And he should know that being told you should apply is different from having an offer in your hand. Carson’s self-pity is indeed pitiful. He thinks he’s been subject to more scrutiny than anyone in history. Perhaps he missed the birther movement. What’s up with his claims about Obama’s academic record being sealed? Are presidents supposed to release transcripts? Has any other president done so? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2015, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554/489 "2015-11-09T12:56:21Z")
In case anyone’s wondering whether general election polling showing Carson leading Clinton is worth anything this early: it’s not. At least, [according to Nate Silver’s team](http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/a-year-out-ignore-general-election-polls/undefined). Ignore general election polling, this early, entirely. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2015, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554/490 "2015-11-09T13:17:56Z")
Interestingly for those who think 2012 started a new trend, 2012 had the second most stable polling a year out. The outcome only changed by 1 point. Looks like minds were made up pretty much around this time or even earlier. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2015, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554/491 "2015-11-09T14:07:05Z")
Which outcome? As I pointed out to you, Herman Cain was leading the Republican primary polls this time in 2012. ---
**Author:** ![Lantern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d26b3c/32.png) [@Lantern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lantern)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2015, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554/492 "2015-11-09T14:08:10Z")
A few points about that list: a)The polling errors do seem to have reduced in more recent elections. 1992 was a huge miss but the five since then do seem to have smaller errors, an average error of around 6 compared to 11 for the full sample. b) While the absolute numbers are off, the polls do appear to have some predictive power as far as the winner is concerned, 11/14 which seems better than random. In particular the last five winners were correctly predicted. c) The really big errors are when one candidate had a massive lead at this time. Clearly that isn’t the case this year. Among elections where the difference is under 5 the errors are relatively small. Overall I would place a smallish weight on the polls right now but ignoring them altogether would be going too far. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2015, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554/493 "2015-11-09T14:24:11Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Interestingly for those who think 2012 started a new trend, 2012 had the second most stable polling a year out. The outcome only changed by 1 point. Looks like minds were made up pretty much around this time or even earlier. Keep on hoping! 😃 And something occurred to me this morning: I’d heard this story before about a class where the exam wasn’t what people expected, and so everyone slunk out except for one student. The original source for the story I read (this isn’t where I read it!) was apparently the [Harvard Alumni Bulletin, Volume 43, Issue 1 (1940)](https://books.google.com/books?id=dEvoAAAAMAAJ&q=harvard+alumni+bulletin+Who,+in+chronological+order,+were+the+kings+of+Israel?&dq=harvard+alumni+bulletin+Who,+in+chronological+order,+were+the+kings+of+Israel?&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CB0Q6AEwAGoVChMIzKPnmMWDyQIVwTc-Ch0FOw-8), and the incident it recounted supposedly occurred considerably earlier. This variant of the story concerns a religion class, with a professor who, year after year, always asked the same final exam question: “Who, in chronological order, were the kings of Israel?” The students could coast through the semester, memorize the list the night before, write it down in the exam room the next day, and get an easy A. But of course, someone tips off the professor to the fact that none of his students are studying anything except that list, so one year he changes the question to “Who were the major prophets and who were the minor prophets?” Everyone slinks out of the room except one student who scribbles furiously away, and hands in his paper with a smile. The student wrote: “Far be it from me to distinguish between these reverend gentlemen, but it occurred to me that you might like a chronological list of the kings of Israel.” ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2015, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554/494 "2015-11-09T15:02:11Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > I’d be willing to give him the benefit of the doubt that he spoke with Westmoreland on a similar occasion (a few months earlier, IIRC, too lazy to do a few clicks to look it up :)) that Westmoreland was in Detroit. > > But (responding more to **adaher** now) as DSeid said just a few posts earlier, it’s one thing for a 17 year old to misinterpret that conversation as an offer of a ‘full scholarship’ to the U.S. Military Academy. It’s another thing for a 40 year old man, reflecting on his past as he writes his autobiography, to be similarly deluded. Or a 63 year old man describing the incident again three months ago. > > He could be lying. Or he could have an incredibly weak connection with reality as we know it. Lying, frankly, is much less of a disqualification than being a total fruit loop. He’s trying to protect his product, said product being Ben Carson. This product has made money for him for a long time, and continues to do so in the guise of a presidential run, which initially was just an ad campaign to sell himself. When that product is threatened by accusations of lies, he is suddenly able to shake off the lethargy he’s shown so far and become fiercely defensive and animated. The man is a huckster of the first order. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2015, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554/495 "2015-11-09T15:12:30Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > He’s trying to protect his product, said product being Ben Carson. This product has made money for him for a long time, and continues to do so in the guise of a presidential run, which initially was just an ad campaign to sell himself. When that product is threatened by accusations of lies, he is suddenly able to shake off the lethargy he’s shown so far and become fiercely defensive and animated. The man is a huckster of the first order. No doubt about it. But being a successful huckster and being a total fruit loop aren’t mutually exclusive, especially if you’ve got to absorb the fruitloopiness of your marks to fully understand how to best hook them. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2015, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554/496 "2015-11-09T17:14:30Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > **Well that was a drag…** > …so let’s talk about Puerto Rico! I think it’s an asset to the US, to the extent that it is a bridge to Latin America, a multi-continent with huge growth opportunities. Right, and that pretty much was the context and reading we got from Carson (and of course that we’re beautiful warm people with fine values of faith, the usual line we get from the Pubbie candidates). ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2015, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554/497 "2015-11-09T18:33:47Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I’m all for Puerto Rican statehood, but, **is** PR an asset to the USA? Serious question. My understanding was that it’s a drain economically. (Like many red states.) Who cares? Two more Democratic U.S. senators! Go, Ben, go! ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2015, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554/498 "2015-11-09T18:38:53Z")
Clinton trails all Republicans but Cruz in Minnesota, but trails Carson by 9. In Minnesota. [http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/latest\_polls/](http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/latest_polls/) Good thing it doesn’t mean anything. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2015, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554/499 "2015-11-09T18:41:00Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Clinton trails all Republicans but Cruz in Minnesota, but trails Carson by 9. In Minnesota. > > [Latest Polls 2024 | RealClearPolling](http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/latest_polls/) > > Good thing it doesn’t mean anything. I won’t say it doesn’t mean “anything,” but I agree it doesn’t mean much. Just ask President Herman Cain. ---
**Author:** ![CaptMurdock](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/captmurdock/32/11736_2.png) [@CaptMurdock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaptMurdock)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2015, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554/500 "2015-11-09T18:49:11Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I didn’t realize that now you have to have cites for everything in your autobiography. \*\*I notice this is also the first time such a thing has been required of a candidate. > \*\* Oh, thank you. I always like to clean coffee off my monitor screen. :rolleyes: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554.md?page=24) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554.md?page=26)