# Ben Carson for President thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [August 31, 2015, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554 "2015-08-31T22:58:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 28
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2015, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554/541 "2015-11-10T18:08:44Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Let’s see- “I got a full scholarship offer from West Point” later turns out to be that he neither applied nor was accepted. > > “I saved white guys during MLK riots” turns out to have zero evidence. > > “I had a gun pointed at me at Popeye’s” does not appear on the police report. > > “I stabbed somebody and hit a belt buckle” but nobody else remembers > > And…so…on. > > When your full time occupation is telling your own story and you consistently lie, your poll standing is not going to stay up. And the media has just begun to dig into it. (Lucky for Carson, they’re buying his books for research). When reciting personal anecdotes, a) you don’t need cites, and b) even if it’s made up it’s a pretty small crime, since most people tend to remember their own history the way they want to. And you can’t prove that these things didn’t happen as Carson remembered them anyway. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2015, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554/542 "2015-11-10T18:13:56Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > When reciting personal anecdotes, a) you don’t need cites, and b) even if it’s made up it’s a pretty small crime, since most people tend to remember their own history the way they want to. And you can’t prove that these things didn’t happen as Carson remembered them anyway. You can prove that Carson was not offered admittance to West Point as there are no records of his application. When you tell tall tales and there is zero evidence to support it, it shows you’re nothing more than a con man, as further evidenced by his selling of snake oil. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2015, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554/543 "2015-11-10T18:14:48Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > When reciting personal anecdotes, a) you don’t need cites, and b) even if it’s made up it’s a pretty small crime, since most people tend to remember their own history the way they want to. And you can’t prove that these things didn’t happen as Carson remembered them anyway. I’m sure you were as forgiving for Brian Williams. Anyway, the West Point story, by itself, would not be a big deal to me. As others have said, there are many better reasons to keep this guy out of a position of power. But, he does seem to play fast and loose with the truth. That would give me pause if I were ever going to give him a second of consideration. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2015, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554/544 "2015-11-10T18:34:26Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > You can prove that Carson was not offered admittance to West Point as there are no records of his application. When you tell tall tales and there is zero evidence to support it, it shows you’re nothing more than a con man, as further evidenced by his selling of snake oil. Carson never claimed he applied, and the offer was not in writing. Many West Point attendees are recruited that way. Heck, many recruits to ANYTHING are recruited that way. “Hey, want a job?” is not a formal job offer, but it’s fair for someone who has heard that to say they had an offer of employment. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2015, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554/545 "2015-11-10T18:36:02Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > I’m sure you were as forgiving for Brian Williams. > > Anyway, the West Point story, by itself, would not be a big deal to me. As others have said, there are many better reasons to keep this guy out of a position of power. But, he does seem to play fast and loose with the truth. That would give me pause if I were ever going to give him a second of consideration. And Hillary Clinton says her grandparents were immigrants. Oops. I don’t think you’ll find anyone who hasn’t lied about something. I’m more concerned about lies where it’s obvious the person knew they were telling a lie than recounting a story from their youth and getting it wrong because they were ignorant of West Point procedures. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2015, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554/546 "2015-11-10T18:49:52Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Carson never claimed he applied, and the offer was not in writing. Many West Point attendees are recruited that way. Heck, many recruits to ANYTHING are recruited that way. “Hey, want a job?” is not a formal job offer, but it’s fair for someone who has heard that to say they had an offer of employment. Except that the person he supposedly having dinner with wasn’t in the same town at the time. So much spinning… ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2015, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554/547 "2015-11-10T18:57:58Z")
> [@](#): > > “Dr. Carson was the top ROTC student in the city of Detroit,” Watts said in an email to The News. “In that role he was invited to meet General Westmoreland. He believes it was at a banquet. He can’t remember with specificity their brief conversation but it centered around Dr. Carson’s performance as ROTC City Executive Officer.” > > Carson’s spokesman could not pinpoint whether Carson met Westmoreland in February 1969 in Detroit or on Memorial Day 1969 as detailed in his memoir. > > “We believe he met Westmoreland at the banquet,” Watts told The News. > **[Carson’s Westmoreland story doesn’t match records](https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/politics/2015/11/06/carsons-westmoreland-story-match-records/75328960/)** > > Records, Detroit News report show Westmoreland was in Detroit in February 1969 for dinner honoring Vietnam soldier ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2015, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554/548 "2015-11-10T19:19:21Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Carson never claimed he applied, and the offer was not in writing. Many West Point attendees are recruited that way. Heck, many recruits to ANYTHING are recruited that way. “Hey, want a job?” is not a formal job offer, but it’s fair for someone who has heard that to say they had an offer of employment. If he wrote his memoir at 17 I’d give him a pass for not knowing any better. When he did write it, though, he should have known. And maybe meeting Westmoreland at a maybe banquet don’t cut it. First, the circumstances of the meeting would be totally different from what he said. Second, as a well known person I bet he gave at least one med student encouragement to apply for an internship or something. He’d know that was nowhere near a job offer. You don’t do serious stuff like that at banquets. BTW, I read this morning that they found evidence of an unexplored secret room in a pyramid at Giza. I bet Ben is hoping for them finding grain. Also BTW I don’t remember if I wrote or thought about writing about a well known prof at Berkeley who said I should try to be a professor there. I never did anything about it (they didn’t pay enough) but if I write in my memoir that I turned down a job offer at Berkeley I’d be lying. Just like Carson is lying. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2015, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554/549 "2015-11-10T19:22:58Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I’m more concerned about lies where it’s obvious the person knew they were telling a lie than recounting a story from their youth and getting it wrong because they were ignorant of West Point procedures. If it’s “innocent misunderstanding”, that’s one thing. I’m not at all convinced that that’s what it was. All of these stories from Carson’s autobiography are now coming across to me as stories that might have a grain of truth to them, but have been spun and elaborated upon to make them sound grander and more indicative of Carson’s specialness. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2015, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554/550 "2015-11-10T19:24:15Z")
He really does want his rise to have been more impressive than it seems it really was - a smart, nerdy kid in a tough neighborhood who kept his head down, stayed out of trouble as much as he could, and got the hell out of there and into college, and on to a fine professional career. But that’s already a pretty damn impressive story, and it’s a shame he isn’t satisfied with it. He never had to make up _anything_. ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2015, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554/551 "2015-11-10T19:26:28Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Let’s see- “I got a full scholarship offer from West Point” later turns out to be that he neither applied nor was accepted. And the proof that Carson never applied to West Point comes from…his own book! Because in it, he says that Yale is the only school he applied to. That Carson was a top ROTC member is not disputed. He likely met General Westmoreland in February of 1969, not May. Doesn’t it make sense that Westmoreland, and perhaps others at West Point, would have tried to recruit him? He somehow interpreted that recruitment as a scholarship offer. This is an incredibly silly thing to point at and cry “liar!” > [@](#): > > “I stabbed somebody and hit a belt buckle” but nobody else remembers Nobody, except of course, his own mother, who corroborated the story to Parade magazine back in 1997. I’m not even a Carson supporter, but the attacks on his credibility have been very flimsy. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2015, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554/552 "2015-11-10T19:31:00Z")
I think it was a fishing expedition to get CArson pissed, it worked, and Carson looked bad as a result. Dealing with the media is something all outsider candidates suck at(Jesse Venture HATED the media and made no secret of it). ---
**Author:** ![CaptMurdock](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/captmurdock/32/11736_2.png) [@CaptMurdock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaptMurdock)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2015, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554/553 "2015-11-10T19:36:53Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I think it was a fishing expedition to get CArson pissed,\*\* it worked, and Carson looked bad as a result.\*\* Dealing with the media is something all outsider candidates suck at(Jesse Venture HATED the media and made no secret of it). And _this_ is the guy you want to dictate foreign policy. :smack: I’m going to hang on to this quote for a while: > [@](#): > > finding inconsistencies in small details written down from memory is not evidence of dishonesty. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Twoflower](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/twoflower/32/22_2.png) [@Twoflower](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Twoflower)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2015, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554/554 "2015-11-10T19:39:24Z")
I’m glad to see his fans are standing by him. It would be sad if his campaign imploded too soon; let’s keep the clown car full as long as possible. ---
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2015, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554/555 "2015-11-10T19:39:59Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Eh, I don’t think you need to go that far. Carson himself seems to think he should be president because he was a violent felon at 18 (or before). So in his case his youthful indiscretions are apparently relevant to his campaign anyway. [Anthony Jeselnik] What can you say about [Ben Carson] that hasn’t already been the title of a Richard Pryor album? [/Anthony Jeselnik] ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2015, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554/556 "2015-11-10T19:40:58Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > And the proof that Carson never applied to West Point comes from…his own book! Because in it, he says that Yale is the only school he applied to. > > That Carson was a top ROTC member is not disputed. He likely met General Westmoreland in February of 1969, not May. Doesn’t it make sense that Westmoreland, and perhaps others at West Point, would have tried to recruit him? He somehow interpreted that recruitment as a scholarship offer. This is an incredibly silly thing to point at and cry “liar!” As I and others have said several times already, this is a perfectly reasonable mistake to make when you’re 17. Not so much when you’re 40 or 63. I hate to have to keep saying this, but I’m not hearing any rebuttal, just a restatement of the same old same old, so I’ll keep on pointing out the same old same old problem with it. ---
**Author:** ![Donald\_Rump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Donald\_Rump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donald_Rump)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2015, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554/557 "2015-11-10T19:44:49Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > Nobody, except of course, his own mother, who corroborated the story to Parade magazine back in 1997. Here’s what she said in [Parade](http://www.washingtontimes.com/multimedia/image/ben-carson-paradejpg/): > [@](#): > > “Oh, that really happened,” Sonya told me. “I sat him down and told him that you don’t accomplish anything much by being a bully. You accomplish more with kindness than you ever do by being harsh.” That’s her reaction? I mean, maybe now we know where the guy got his trademark preternatural calm, but she finds out he tried to commit murder [of a relative, no less] and her response is, “Now now, Ben, why must you be so very harsh?” Sounds like bullshit to me. My money is on her backing up the story because it was already woven into his bestselling memoir and speeches and public persona. If I find it pretty easy to believe that Carson is both a talented neurosurgeon and a self-aggrandizing huckster of the first order, I can very easily imagine his mom being in on the game. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Lowry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Sam\_Lowry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Lowry)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2015, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554/558 "2015-11-10T19:53:53Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > Nobody, except of course, his own mother, who corroborated the story to Parade magazine back in 1997. > > I’m not even a Carson supporter, but the attacks on his credibility have been very flimsy. Has she confirmed his story about him trying to hit her in the head with a hammer? That’s the story I’m really curious about. Or about him going after people with a baseball bat, a rock, or a combination lock? I never thought the stabbing story was impossible, it’s just bizarre. And bizarre things do happen, and that’s why people tell those stories, because they are interesting, but it’s just strange. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2015, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554/559 "2015-11-10T19:55:33Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > And Hillary Clinton says her grandparents were immigrants. Oops. I don’t think you’ll find anyone who hasn’t lied about something. Her grandfather Rodham was born in England. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2015, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554/560 "2015-11-10T20:01:14Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Carson never claimed he applied, and the offer was not in writing. Many West Point attendees are recruited that way. Really? Many West Point attendees are verbally offered a slot in the following year’s freshman class at the U.S. Military Academy by some military bigwig who doesn’t have a position at the Academy, the very first time they meet? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554.md?page=27) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554.md?page=29)