# Ben Carson for President thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [August 31, 2015, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554 "2015-08-31T22:58:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 37
**Author:** ![Pashnish\_Ewing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8797f3/32.png) [@Pashnish\_Ewing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pashnish_Ewing)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554/721 "2015-11-25T00:26:53Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > That one won’t fly with the Trogs. Of course it is important to protect religious liberty, but that’s like making sure the Methodists don’t make the Baptists illegal. But Muslims aren’t really a religion, so it doesn’t count. He’ll ditch that position, or clarify it to death. I agree. The true believers won’t see this as a poke from the right, they’ll just accuse Cruz of being a Mooslim lover. ---
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554/722 "2015-11-25T01:44:05Z")
> [@Superdude](#): > > [Carson also thinks Thomas Jefferson wrote the Constitution.](http://www.politico.com/story/2015/11/ben-carson-thomas-jefferson-gaffe-216146) > > As much as I hate to, I have to support him here. It’s certainly not out of the realm of possibility that he confused one document with another. If you asked a group of people who wrote it, I am quite sure that many of them would have said the same thing. The quoted article is shameful reporting on the part of Politico and earned a rebuke from [Dave Mastio at USAToday](http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2015/11/23/ben-carson-jefferson-constitution-column/76271256/). Jefferson was, as the ambassador to France, in correspondence with George Washington and James Madison. Carson claimed, quite correctly, that through this correspondence Jefferson helped craft the Constitution. Carson did not claim that Jefferson authored the Constitution. There is a difference. The National Archives has this to say about Jefferson’s role in the framing of the Constitution: > [@US National Archives](#): > > **Q. Was Thomas Jefferson a member of the Constitutional Convention?** > A. No. Jefferson was American Minister to France at the time of the Constitutional Convention. > \*\* > Q. What did Thomas Jefferson have to do with framing the Constitution?\*\* > A. Although absent from the Constitutional Convention and during the period of ratification, Jefferson rendered no inconsiderable service to the cause of Constitutional Government, for it was partly through his insistence that the Bill of Rights, consisting of the first ten amendments, was adopted. The Founding Fathers had input on the Constitution which went through [several drafts](http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/constitution_q_and_a.html) in a series of committees. If what Politic thinks is really important is who put pen to paper then they got it wrong on that point too. It wasn’t Madison. [Jacob Shallus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Shallus) was apparently the person who actually physically wrote the final draft of the Constitution. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554/723 "2015-11-25T01:59:11Z")
Well, OK, and not that it matters, but how did he conduct this participation? By mail? A letter from New York to Paris and back? ---
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554/724 "2015-11-25T04:07:04Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Well, OK, and not that it matters, but how did he conduct this participation? By mail? A letter from New York to Paris and back? They didn’t exactly have email and telephones. However there is an [online archive](http://www.let.rug.nl/usa/presidents/thomas-jefferson/letters-of-thomas-jefferson/) of some of his writings. This [letter from Jefferson to Madison](http://www.let.rug.nl/usa/presidents/thomas-jefferson/letters-of-thomas-jefferson/jefl66.php) of Dec 20, 1787 includes arguments for many aspects we recognize in the Constitution and Bill of Rights - and some that only came about later such as term limits on the Presidency. But not everything Jefferson argued for in the Constitution got approval. He argued for limits on monopolies for example, a point that didn’t get approval. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554/725 "2015-11-25T10:37:02Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Well, OK, and not that it matters, but how did he conduct this participation? By mail? A letter from New York to Paris and back? Yeah, TJ commented by long distance–but mail across the ocean took a long, long time. What Carson actually said (from the Politico link): > [@](#): > > But I’m particularly impressed with Thomas Jefferson, who seemed to have very deep insight into the way that people would react and tried to craft our Constitution in a way that it would control people’s national tendencies and control the natural growth of the government… I recently finished Joseph J Ellis’s _The Quartet: Orchestrating the Second American Revolution, 1783-1789_ > [@](#): > > My argument is that four men made the transition from confederation to nation happen. They are George Washington, Alexander Hamilton, John Jay, and James Madison. If they are the stars of the story, the supporting cast consists of Robert Morris, Gouverneur Morris (no relation), and Thomas Jefferson. Gouverneur Morris did most of the “writing”–putting the Constitution into words–no matter who did the penmanship. Note that TJ is a _supporting_ characters. Carson is lauding TJ’s wish for a weak central government; the article supposedly supporting his comments points out Jefferson’s wish for a Bill of Rights. Ellis said the Convention omitted a Bill because they’d run out of time & energy. Madison also thought it unnecessary because he considered rights implicit in the document. But the anti-Ratification forces fought for a Bill of Rights & many amendments (mostly to weaken the central government); why not just call another Constitutional Convention? Rather than have his (& others’) work be destroyed, Madison came up with a list of amendments–to be added by Congress _after_ the new government had begun to function. > [@](#): > > Madison had spent the last two years thoroughly immersed in the political campaign to draft the Constitution and oversee its ratification. Jefferson, on the other hand, was an ocean away in Paris, and although Madison had kept him informed of the state-by-state developments in the ratification process, Jefferson was blissfully oblivious to the supercharged political atmosphere that Madison was trying to manage. From Paris, Jefferson proposed numerous Constitutional Conventions–a loopy idea that Madison rejected. After his return, TJ _did_ support a weaker central government; as did Madison, under his spell. (TJ also supported a weak Executive–until he became President.) **tl;dr** Carson’s comments reveal an ignorance of history. Jefferson didn’t “craft” the Constitution–he kibitzed from Paris. (What does “control people’s national tendencies” mean? Did he really mean “natural tendencies”? TJ was all in favor of freedom, not control–for white men, that is.) ---
**Author:** ![botsgotme](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@botsgotme](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/botsgotme)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554/726 "2015-11-25T14:21:43Z")
It is amazing that Dr. Carson is being vilified for a few small mistakes. when Obama thought that there were 57 US states, or that the Marines are called the “Marine corpse”, everyone thought it was just trivial. or when Joe Biden thinks that there are coal mines in Delaware, or that he actually wrote a speech (that he stole from Neil Kinnock), it is just danay. the double standar is amazing. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554/727 "2015-11-25T14:50:09Z")
> [@botsgotme](#): > > It is amazing that Dr. Carson is being vilified for a few small mistakes They’re not just “small mistakes”… evolution is real, climate change is real, the pyramids did not store grain, the US is not like Nazi Germany, Muslims should not be barred from office… > [@](#): > > when Obama thought that there were 57 US states, or that the Marines are called the “Marine corpse”, everyone thought it was just trivial. or when Joe Biden thinks that there are coal mines in Delaware, or that he actually wrote a speech (that he stole from Neil Kinnock), it is just danay. > the double standar is amazing. Obama and Biden were mocked a lot for these mistakes. But they, apparently, overcame the mockery with all the other things they said and did (which voters liked enough to elect them twice by large margins). I haven’t seen any actual particularly intelligent things from Carson to counteract his buffoonery. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554/728 "2015-11-25T14:52:22Z")
> [@botsgotme](#): > > It is amazing that Dr. Carson is being vilified for a few small mistakes. when Obama thought that there were 57 US states, or that the Marines are called the “Marine corpse”, everyone thought it was just trivial. or when Joe Biden thinks that there are coal mines in Delaware, or that he actually wrote a speech (that he stole from Neil Kinnock), it is just danay. > the double standar is amazing. Nope, there is a big difference, ask Obama again and it will be clear that he is aware of the gaffe. Ask Carson again about being punked, his Pyramid scheme 🙂 , vaccination waffling, human induced global warming nevermindness, international issues bone headness, snake oil salesmanship, etc; and you will never get the proper answer or it will remain the same nonsense as he can not change “what god told him” to believe. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554/729 "2015-11-25T14:56:23Z")
> [@botsgotme](#): > > It is amazing that Dr. Carson is being vilified for a few small mistakes. when Obama thought that there were 57 US states, or that the Marines are called the “Marine corpse”, everyone thought it was just trivial. or when Joe Biden thinks that there are coal mines in Delaware, or that he actually wrote a speech (that he stole from Neil Kinnock), it is just danay. > the double standar is amazing. I get so tired of this rightwing revisionist bullshit. Nobody can possibly believe that Obama, a law professor, doesn’t know how many states there are. A one-off misstatement in the midst of a grueling campaign is hardly comparable to Carson maintaining for at least 15 years that the pyramids were Joseph’s grainaries. On the other hand, Biden’s plagiarism of Kinnock IS on the same level as Carson’s made-up stories about his gangsta days, or being congratulated by his professor (not some prankster) for his honesty. But nobody thought it was danay, whatever that is. [He had to drop out of the race 11 days after the accusations came out](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Biden_presidential_campaign,_1988#Kinnock_controversy). Which is what Carson should do. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554/730 "2015-11-25T14:56:58Z")
> [@botsgotme](#): > > It is amazing that Dr. Carson is being vilified for a few small mistakes. when Obama thought that there were 57 US states, or that the Marines are called the “Marine corpse”, everyone thought it was just trivial. or when Joe Biden thinks that there are coal mines in Delaware, or that he actually wrote a speech (that he stole from Neil Kinnock), it is just danay. > the double standar is amazing. Holy Christ. Obama was referring to primary contests, which when you count the territories is \>50. Who gives a fuck how one pronounces “corps”? Enough fucking people can’t pronounce “nuclear”. Biden nearly always gave Kinnock attribution. So he didn’t once. BFD. Compare that to a guy who thinks Obamacare is equivalent to slavery, that climate change is a hoax, and that the pyramids were silos. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554/731 "2015-11-25T14:59:18Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Nope, there is a big difference, ask Obama again and it will be clear that he is aware of the gaffe. > > Ask Carson again about being punked, his Pyramid scheme 🙂 , vaccination waffling, human induced global warming nevermindness, international issues bone headness, snake oil salesmanship, etc; and you will never get the proper answer or it will remain the same nonsense as he can not change “what god told him” to believe. Yep, this is an important point – Obama admits that 57 states was a mistake, but Carson doesn’t admit that the pyramids didn’t store grain, or that evolution was real, or that snake oil doesn’t cure cancer, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554/732 "2015-11-25T15:19:28Z")
How about the lie Hillary’s been telling for decades about trying to join the Marines? That blew over in about a day. Yet, we are bombarded with inane stories about what Ben Carson said or thought to be true. I mean, this Thomas Jefferson thing, who gives a rip? And then it turns out, hey you know what, Carson was pretty much accurate as it relates to the Bill of Rights. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554/733 "2015-11-25T15:26:19Z")
If Jefferson wrote the 2nd amendment that would satisfy the right wing as having written the Constitution, as that is the only part they care about (at least the second half of the 2nd). ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554/734 "2015-11-25T15:26:36Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > How about the lie Hillary’s been telling for decades about trying to join the Marines? That blew over in about a day. Yet, we are bombarded with inane stories about what Ben Carson said or thought to be true. I mean, this Thomas Jefferson thing, who gives a rip? And then it turns out, hey you know what, Carson was pretty much accurate as it relates to the Bill of Rights. Except Carson wasn’t talking about Jefferson & the Bill of Rights. For somebody who wrote a book about the Constitution, Carson missed a lot; even if he didn’t really write it, he ought to have read it. Carson has proven his dimness again & again… ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554/735 "2015-11-25T15:34:53Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > How about the lie Hillary’s been telling for decades about trying to join the Marines? That blew over in about a day. Yet, we are bombarded with inane stories about what Ben Carson said or thought to be true. I mean, this Thomas Jefferson thing, who gives a rip? And then it turns out, hey you know what, Carson was pretty much accurate as it relates to the Bill of Rights. Not to say this is okay or anything, but there is a difference between lying and espousing crazy theories. I can understand lying. Someone is trying to make themselves look better. They know the truth and are choosing to downplay it or come up with something completely different for the purpose of elevating themselves. Espousing crazy theories signifies something is wrong in the person’s brain. They have trouble understanding what is real and what is not. They eagerly accept unsubstantiated ideas as fact and do not take the effort to prove or disprove them. This is more dangerous in a leader since they will be highly unpredictable and act in irrational ways. If Carson thinks something is a danger, than to him it is a real danger and he will act accordingly even if it’s all in his mind. He’s not lying. They are not a misstatement. He truly believes these crazy theories. Given the choice between a liar and a crackpot, I would take the liar. The liar is working towards a goal and is lying as way to achieve it. A crackpot is unpredictable and, while he may be more “truthful”, he is strongly invested in his crazy theories and won’t be willing to learn the truth. ---
**Author:** ![KaleMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@KaleMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KaleMan)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554/736 "2015-11-25T15:52:32Z")
Before Karson came, I never though so bad about neurosurgery doctors. ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554/737 "2015-11-25T16:12:40Z")
> [@KaleMan](#): > > Before Karson came, I never though so bad about neurosurgery doctors. Imagine if all your doctors were vetted like this. Scary. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2015, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554/738 "2015-11-29T03:34:47Z")
So KKKarson goes to Jordan and visits a refugee camp, and says afterwards that he thinks the refugees should be taken in by Arab countries. Because, yeah, Jordan has been so good at assimilating the Palestinians who have been in refugee camps for 70 years. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2015, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554/739 "2015-11-29T04:42:08Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > So KKKarson goes to Jordan and visits a refugee camp, and says afterwards that he thinks the refugees should be taken in by Arab countries. Because, yeah, Jordan has been so good at assimilating the Palestinians who have been in refugee camps for 70 years. He was probably thinking the camps _are_ the model for how refugees should be taken in. That’s it, the whole solution. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2015, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554/740 "2015-11-29T13:23:13Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > He was probably thinking the camps _are_ the model for how refugees should be taken in. That’s it, the whole solution. I think Trump and Carson are looking for the _final_ solution regarding Syrian refugees. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554.md?page=36) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-carson-for-president-thread/729554.md?page=38)