# Ben Franklin's quote still valid? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 12, 2001, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-franklins-quote-still-valid/92968 "2001-11-12T20:27:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2001, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-franklins-quote-still-valid/92968/1 "2001-11-12T20:27:52Z")
I want to start a Great Debate! One of my favorite quotes (hey, just cause I can’t say it verbatim, doesn’t mean its not one of my favorites!) is something Ben Franklin said about liberty and safety. I know someone has it as a sig line, so it is bound to be posted shortly in its correct form. Basically, he says that those who would trade liberty for safety deserve neither. Is this still valid today? I think when he said this, it made a lot of sense, but this was long ago, and the world was a simpler, different place. The threats to personal safety are much greater today. I think that if he were around today, he would disagree. Are we already trading liberty for safety? At what point do we draw the line? ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2001, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-franklins-quote-still-valid/92968/2 "2001-11-12T20:38:17Z")
**gatopescado** wrote: > [@](#): > > The threats to personal safety are much greater today. How so? In Franklin’s day, the English colonists in America were threatened by a hostile empire (France) and hostile Indian tribes allied with said hostile empire. Settlers on the western frontier stood a very good chance of being attacked. I’d say that the colonists were more at risk then than we are today. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2001, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-franklins-quote-still-valid/92968/3 "2001-11-12T21:42:26Z")
well, the king could send over a bunch of troops. took a long time by ship to get there. the indians, murderous french and other local hostiles could come at you with a gun, knive or tomahawk, but it was still pretty much a man on man kind of fight. the dangers were defensable. there is damn little you can do to prevent a airliner from crashing into you. no warning, and little to stop it if you did know it was on its way. thats what i mean when i said its more dangerous today. the more i think about it, the more the original quote seems kinda limited… ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2001, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-franklins-quote-still-valid/92968/4 "2001-11-12T21:59:26Z")
> [@](#): > > **it is bound to be posted shortly in its correct form.** From [http://www.bartleby.com/100/245.1.html](http://www.bartleby.com/100/245.1.html) > [@](#): > > NUMBER: 3929 > AUTHOR: Benjamin Franklin (1706–1790) > QUOTATION: \*\*They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. \*\*1 > ATTRIBUTION: Historical Review of Pennsylvania. > BIOGRAPHY: Columbia Encyclopedia. > > Note 1. > This sentence was much used in the Revolutionary period. It occurs even so early as November, 1755, in an answer by the Assembly of Pennsylvania to the Governor, and forms the motto of Franklin’s “Historical Review,” 1759, appearing also in the body of the work.—Frothingham: Rise of the Republic of the United States, p. 413. [back] It’s not that the original quote seems kinda limited–it’s that the sound bite version is kinda limited. It’s not “about” trading “liberty” for “safety”. Not quite that simplistic. Sorry. Perhaps you should expand upon your OP. In what way are modern-day Americans trading essential liberty for a little temporary safety? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2001, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-franklins-quote-still-valid/92968/5 "2001-11-12T22:04:05Z")
> [@](#): > > “They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” _Historical Review of Pennsylvania_, 1759 Giving up _essential_ liberty for a _little temporary_ safety was the issue. How much will you give up for how much? We already “surrender” some “liberty” to be safer on the highways, however, I would not consider rules of the road to impinge on “essential” liberties. So, where do _you_ draw the line. If you’d like a debate, set forth a thesis. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2001, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-franklins-quote-still-valid/92968/6 "2001-11-12T23:36:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tomndebb \* > > We already “surrender” some “liberty” to be safer on the highways, however, I would not consider rules of the road to impinge on “essential” liberties. > > So, where do _you_ draw the line. \*\* hey, i just wanted to \*start[/] a debate! personally, i dont see a problem with heavy searchs of your luggage and person if you want to get on an airplane, but then i don’t fly too much. I always wear my motorcycle helmet, but i should have the choice to take it off if i want, but the law says i cant. i guess the point i was vainly stabbing at was that yeah, we have to trade some freedom for safety. Old Ben might not have thought that was such a good quote if he could visit us in 2001. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2001, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-franklins-quote-still-valid/92968/7 "2001-11-12T23:46:30Z")
god, i suck! i hope this thread dies a quick and painless death! ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2001, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-franklins-quote-still-valid/92968/8 "2001-11-13T16:11:52Z")
Aw, don’t be so hard on yourself, **gatopescado**. Everyone who starts a Great Debates thread takes a few shots. It is interesting to ponder what Franklin would say about our situation today. There is serious discussion of narrowing the scope of our Fourth Amendment rights in the interest of fighting terrorism. I would not be at all surprised to see the courts constricting the definition of “unreasonable search and seizure” in light of the events of September 11. At the same time, there is discussion of a national ID card which would assist the government in keeping track of its citizens. Would Franklin approve? Hard to say. Though he was publically a rhetorician for civil liberties, he was also a very practical man, and a realist. In spite of the rhetoric I think he would accept some compromises.