# Ben Stein's new movie Expelled **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 23, 2008, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-steins-new-movie-expelled/442482 "2008-03-23T23:44:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eyebrows_0f_doom/32/3119_2.png) [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2008, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-steins-new-movie-expelled/442482/201 "2008-04-21T20:55:57Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] The heavy-handed Godwinization (the intercutting of stock Nazi footage as allegedly persecuted IDists whine about how people think their ideas are stupid and don’t want to subscribe to their newsletters) [/QUOTE] Shit. I just realized that the stock footage company I work for gave them that footage, which means we are probably listed in the credits at the end. :eek: ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2008, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-steins-new-movie-expelled/442482/202 "2008-04-21T21:01:35Z")
Well, if it makes you feel any better, I’d totally go see it just to see “Special Thanks: Eyebrows of Doom” in the credits. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Lance\_Murdoch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/47e85d/32.png) [@Captain\_Lance\_Murdoch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Lance_Murdoch)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2008, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-steins-new-movie-expelled/442482/203 "2008-04-22T14:53:12Z")
[QUOTE=Measure for Measure] Well… [Opening day sales are a weak indicator for eventual box office takings](http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2008/02/23/movies/20080223_REVENUE_GRAPHIC.html), and DVD purchases and rentals greatly exceed box office sales, [$4.8 billion vs. $1.78 billion](http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B06E1D7113BF933A15757C0A9629C8B63), and documentaries are cheap to film and there may be congregation screenings to consider as well. All in all, methinks that the film-makers should do ok. I predict a sequel. [/QUOTE] I think opening weekend usually is a pretty good indicator of eventual box office success, actually. Expelled did even worse on its opening weekend than Dio’s cite predicted. It took in $2.9 something million. On a per-screen basis it was soundly beaten by the bomb 88 Minutes. This movie may be somewhat different from the normal film in that some church groups will force kids to see it giving it “legs” of a sort, but nevertheless it’s dud status is written on the wall. You’re right, I think, in saying that the movie will turn a profit eventually, but that’s not really the salient point. This was supposed to be the conservative answer to liberal Hollywood. Where is all that pent-up Christian demand? It will score far less box office than Michael Moore’s films and you know that’s what they were aiming for. It seems there is no chance this film will break into the mainstream now. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2008, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-steins-new-movie-expelled/442482/204 "2008-04-22T15:11:48Z")
[QUOTE=Captain Lance Murdoch] You’re right, I think, in saying that the movie will turn a profit eventually, but that’s not really the salient point. This was supposed to be the conservative answer to liberal Hollywood. Where is all that pent-up Christian demand? It will score far less box office than Michael Moore’s films and you know that’s what they were aiming for. It seems there is no chance this film will break into the mainstream now. [/QUOTE] So liberal talk radio failed because liberals don’t aren’t full of righteous fury, and _Expelled_ failed because Christians aren’t interested in facts (or even reasonable facsimiles thereof)? Sounds about right. Personally, I think the whole thing is flopping because somebody was stupid enough to spent the entire advertising budget on Comedy Central spots. Do they not know who watches Comedy Central? For those who don’t have cable or pay attention, the correct answer is: hippies, pinkos, stoners, college kids, homosexuals, lesbians, atheists, feminists, jaded systems analysts and anarcho-syndicalists. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2008, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-steins-new-movie-expelled/442482/205 "2008-04-22T17:58:10Z")
Just like politics, religious agendas make strange bedfellows. Channel surfing today I saw Stein being interviewed and hawking this movie on the [Crouch’s](http://jordanmaxwell.com/articles/monkey/images/tv-preachers/paul-jan/Paul%20&%20Jan%205.jpg) network, TBN. The host, their son, of course, loved it and praised Stein and said he should be “a rabbi or a preacher” (?) to which Stein responded “Praise from Caesar is praise indeed”. Surreal moment for a super educated Jewish guy to link shields with anti-intellectual rabidly Fundamentalist Christians in a cause. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2008, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-steins-new-movie-expelled/442482/206 "2008-04-22T18:28:02Z")
[QUOTE=Captain Lance Murdoch] I think opening weekend usually is a pretty good indicator of eventual box office success, actually. Expelled did even worse on its opening weekend than Dio’s cite predicted. It took in $2.9 something million. On a per-screen basis it was soundly beaten by the bomb 88 Minutes. This movie may be somewhat different from the normal film in that some church groups will force kids to see it giving it “legs” of a sort, but nevertheless it’s dud status is written on the wall. You’re right, I think, in saying that the movie will turn a profit eventually, but that’s not really the salient point. This was supposed to be the conservative answer to liberal Hollywood. Where is all that pent-up Christian demand? It will score far less box office than Michael Moore’s films and you know that’s what they were aiming for. It seems there is no chance this film will break into the mainstream now. [/QUOTE] Hollywood’s _all_ about the opening weekend, with films that turn a profit on overseas releases still being considered bombs if the opening weekend in the US was bad. [This site has a slightly higher take.](http://www.sheknows.com/articles/entertainment/movies/803537-Jackie-Chan-rules-the-box-office.htm) > [@](#): > > Its $3.2 million came from church groups that rarely have a film to partake at the movies. Interesting note: with its one week earnings, “Expelled” has become the 26th-biggest grossing documentary of all time – yes in one week! ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2008, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-steins-new-movie-expelled/442482/207 "2008-04-22T18:44:20Z")
> [@](#): > > Interesting note: with its one week earnings, “Expelled” has become the 26th-biggest grossing documentary of all time – yes in one week! I love how they try to make that sound like some sort of accomplishment. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2008, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-steins-new-movie-expelled/442482/208 "2008-04-22T18:45:49Z")
The numbers on that site don’t jibe with boxofficemojo or some of the other sites. I think that must have been based on Friday’s estimate before the numbers got revised down. Also, those church and school groups were bribed to bus people in and help inflate the BO numbers. Also, becoming the “26th documentary of all time” (if that’s even correct) is hardly much of an accomplishment considering the fact that almost no documentary ever gets the number of screens and the amount of promotion that _Expelled_ got. I think they’re trying to make the old silk purse out of a sow’s ear, but _Expelled_ had a very disappointing opening for its producers, no matter what they say. They wanted to engineer a populist, sleeper hit. They didn’t get it. Nobody outside the church groups showed up. The band was only playing to its girlfriends. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2008, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-steins-new-movie-expelled/442482/209 "2008-04-22T19:57:58Z")
Who, in this case, don’t even put out. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2008, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-steins-new-movie-expelled/442482/210 "2008-04-22T21:09:53Z")
[Time Magazine’s Jeffrey Kluger](http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1729703,00.html) is brutal: > [@](#): > > The man made famous by Ferris Bueller, however, quickly wades into waters far too deep for him. > …More dishonestly, Stein employs the common dodge of enumerating all the admittedly unanswered questions in evolutionary theory and using this to refute the whole idea. But all scientific knowledge is built this way. A fishnet is made up of a lot more holes than strings, but you can’t therefore argue that the net doesn’t exist. Just ask the fish. > > It’s in the film’s final third that it runs entirely off the rails as Stein argues that there is a clear line from Darwinism to euthanasia, abortion, eugenics and–wait for it–Nazism. > ..Tautology as typography is not the stuff of deep thought. Neither, alas, is Expelled. Kluger also has some barbs for Dawkins and Hitchens and others who can be callously dismissive of religious faith, which is fair enough. To date though the most damning, though probably only to me, is the line from Dawkins’ review that tells you all you need to know about the bathos and emotional dishonesty and ridiculousness of the movie: > [@](#): > > He visits Dachau and, when informed by the guide that lots of Jews had been killed there, he buries his face in his hands as though this is the first he has heard of it. For some reason that just reeks of false emotion and string-pulling and people who don’t even know how to make a propaganda film. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2008, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-steins-new-movie-expelled/442482/211 "2008-04-22T22:12:20Z")
[QUOTE=Really Not All That Bright] For those who don’t have cable or pay attention, the correct answer is: hippies, pinkos, stoners, college kids, homosexuals, lesbians, atheists, feminists, jaded systems analysts and anarcho-syndicalists. [/QUOTE] The pinacle of evolution. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2008, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-steins-new-movie-expelled/442482/212 "2008-04-23T04:44:56Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] I’m not sure that I agree with this statement. The American Spectator is simply a Right Wing response to any number of far Left college tabloids that hardly qualifies as a voice of Conservatism. Human Events is simply an older and stodgier version of the same thing. They have minimal circulations and (aside from TAS’s flirtation as a scandal rag expending gallons of ink to treat the Clinton White House the way that The National Inquirer treats Hollywood), I don’t recall any conservatives paying much attention to it. The National Review is a bit more problematic, in that it actually does provide a “voice” for the Right, but we’re still looking at a _movie review_ by a Jay Leno staffer, not an editorial by one of TNR’s staff writers or visiting pundits. (Although I suspect that Dave Berg’s idiocy still caused Buckley to spin madly in his grave.) Has Krauthammer or another esteemed Right-wing nutjob weighed in? Or are we really seeing the fringe of the fringe, here? [/QUOTE] The American Spectator was quite influential during the 1990s. I am eager to see a similar denunciation of Human Events by a conservative. And The National Review is considered respectable, though I believe they are a bunch of hacks that should not be taken seriously. I couldn’t find anything by The Weekly Standard. Sorry, but I maintain that modern American Conservatism has a boundless tolerance and appetite for wingnuttery. Yes, I believe that there exist serious minded conservatives, though by objective standards _they_ might be characterized as fringe.[1] Nonetheless, I believe that they need to speak out about this crap. _…crickets…_ [1] This is controversial: are conservatives who serve in Washington and are then drummed out of it -and who rarely receive subsequent airplay- fairly characterized as “fringe”? If not, then I retract. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2008, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-steins-new-movie-expelled/442482/213 "2008-04-23T05:13:19Z")
What I tried to do is to see what the most respected [sic] conservative publications had to say about Expelled. As of this evening, The Weekly Standard continues its radio silence on the issue. What about the **Washington Times** , the late Ronald Reagan’s favorite newspaper? Sure, it’s owned by a nutty cult, but so what? Modern conservatives love it. [Their culture writeup](http://www.washingtontimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080423/CULTURE/722292275&template=nextpage), extracts from NRO’s glowing review, referenced above. In the [Family Times](http://www.washingtontimes.com/article/20080421/FAMILY/450471694) section, Kate Tsubata maintains that its great for home schoolers, and quotes extensively from the producer Mark Mathis. In fact, he’s the only person she quotes. > [@](#): > > Family educators will appreciate the film’s scientific elements and “a wealth of teaching moments,” Mr. Mathis says. > > “There’s a fantastic animation sequence showing the phenomenal things going on in the nucleus of the cell,” he says, “the transcription of information, the condensing and duplication of that information, as well as genetic studies about how mutations destroy information — so how could this process be the source of the building of all this information?” Oh and here’s [Rush Limbaugh’s take](http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_031808/content/01125115.guest.html): > [@Rush Limbaugh](#): > > Ben Stein has a new movie out. He brought it by my house Friday afternoon to screen it for me. It’s called Expelled. It is powerful. It is fabulous. [The NY Sun](http://www2.nysun.com/article/74583) loved it as well, though in a less effusive manner: > [@](#): > > “Expelled” will likely appeal to those whose minds are made up in favor of intelligent design and infuriate those who, like Mr. Dawkins, oppose mixing God with biology. For those with little stake in either side of the controversy, there is the amusing spectacle of Mr. Stein skewering brilliant scientific minds as they are caught off guard by the lights, camera, and action. Mr. Dawkins becomes so flustered at one point that he even posits a creation theory of his own that fits the parameters of the film’s working definition of intelligent design. After all the speculation on display in “Expelled,” I couldn’t help but envision the possibility that if the pro-intelligent design forces had their way, the current, inflexible Darwinian dogma would just swap positions with an equally inflexible intelligent design party line. Mr. Stein put me at ease. “I have no suggestions whatsoever what to replace [Darwinism] with. None at all. Period,” he said. “I just would like the floodgates of discussion to be opened.” Ok, so the NY Sun believes that ID advocates are just as dogmatic as the Darwinians. I suppose that might be the case, for those who don’t believe in empiricism. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2008, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-steins-new-movie-expelled/442482/214 "2008-04-23T05:49:05Z")
Ok, so mainstream conservative publications love Ben Stein’s _Expelled_. What about the Libertarians? [Reason magazine hates it](http://reason.com/news/show/125988.html): > [@](#): > > Yet despite its topic, the film is entirely free of scientific content—no scientific evidence against biological evolution and none for “intelligent design” (ID) theory is given. Which makes sense because biological evolution is amply supported by evidence from the fossil record, molecular biology, and morphology. For example, the younger the rocks in which fossils are found, the more closely they resemble species alive today, and the older the rocks, the less resemblance there is. In addition, molecular biology confirms that the more distantly related the fossil record suggests species lineages are, the more their genes differ. > > Instead of evaluating this evidence, Stein spends most of the movie asking various proponents of evolutionary theory, including Richard Dawkins, P.Z. Myers, Michael Ruse, and Daniel Dennett, for their religious views. Neither the producers nor Stein understand that offering critiques of a theory with which they disagree is not the same as proving their own theory. Google News also pointed me to something from the atheist/libertarian/market fundamentalist/[fringy](http://www.crank.net/metaphysics.html) Ayn Rand Institute, which also panned the film. ---
**Author:** ![Icerigger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icerigger/32/432_2.png) [@Icerigger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icerigger)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2008, 10:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-steins-new-movie-expelled/442482/215 "2008-04-23T10:14:21Z")
Conservatives are supposed to be ruled by logic and reason and Liberals by emotion. This movie is pure propaganda without a single valid scientific point. The questions is do all the important conservatives really believe this nonsense, don’t care about science in any way, support it because it attacks their political rivals, just too stupid to know any better. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2008, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-steins-new-movie-expelled/442482/216 "2008-04-24T05:23:04Z")
Modern American conservatism was born in the 1950s, when Bill Buckley founded the National Review. They had a setback with the Goldwater run in 1964. Then Reagan came to power in 1980 and the rest is history. His policies were more moderate than his rhetoric, but that’s another matter. Go to Europe, and the center-right politicians will sound like liberal democrats. Here’s another conservative site. I’ve shied away from the blogs and purely Christian sources, but [this one purports to be aligned with the Republican Party](http://www.gopusa.com/commentary/cmolin/2008/cdm_04221.shtml), so I thought it might be relevant: > [@GOPUSA](#): > > Ben Stein’s new documentary “Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed” is a riveting expose of the intolerant academic community that systematically declares war on anyone or any institution [i.e. Seattle’s Discovery Institute] that dares to question liberal Darwinian orthodoxy. “Correct speak” and “correct think” are de rigueur among scholars, who are expected to toe the line that “evolution” and “natural selection” are the be all and end all when it comes to deciphering the origins of mankind. Let me be clear about this hackery. A halfway decent essay will at least address the obvious responses of the opposition – rather than simply making shit up. As far as I can tell none of these bozos bothered to address the points made by the National Center for Science Education at this website: [http://www.expelledexposed.com/index.php/the-truth](http://www.expelledexposed.com/index.php/the-truth) The writers and editors at these conservative organs had no interest in educating their readers. What they offered instead was stroke. I have no problem with tough-minded, empirical conservatism. Unfortunately, individuals who espouse such values are typically marginalized in favor of those willing to pamper the modern conservative audience’s highly sensitive disposition. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2008, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-steins-new-movie-expelled/442482/217 "2008-04-24T07:36:23Z")
[QUOTE=Icerigger] Conservatives are supposed to be ruled by logic and reason and Liberals by emotion. This movie is pure propaganda without a single valid scientific point. The questions is do all the important conservatives really believe this nonsense, don’t care about science in any way, support it because it attacks their political rivals, just too stupid to know any better. [/QUOTE] Non-fundie conservatives will think it’s a load of crap, is my guess. However, it is politically expedient for some (conservatives and liberals alike) to pay lip service to fundie airheads in order to pick their votes, so they will say nothing publically. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2008, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-steins-new-movie-expelled/442482/218 "2008-04-24T11:46:57Z")
[QUOTE=Icerigger] Conservatives are supposed to be ruled by logic and reason and Liberals by emotion. [/QUOTE] Surely by now you realize that this itself was never anything but a propaganda point that relates only to the narrow context of sticky problems like racism, social equality, welfare, etc. Stray outside of that and they’re koolaid drinkers just like everybody else. ---
**Author:** ![Icerigger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icerigger/32/432_2.png) [@Icerigger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icerigger)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2008, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-steins-new-movie-expelled/442482/219 "2008-04-24T14:02:03Z")
Yes, I agree. This is however a major theme pushed by conservative voices, they are the rational “daddy” party liberals the emotional “mommy” party. George Will has written of the wonders discovered by the Hubble space telescope so I know he believes in the true age of the universe what his stand on ID is I don’t know. Nature can’t by fooled, I don’t know where this will bite us as a nation but no good can come of it in the long run. ---
**Author:** ![Ca3799](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9f8e36/32.png) [@Ca3799](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ca3799)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2008, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-steins-new-movie-expelled/442482/220 "2008-04-24T14:29:44Z")
From the April 28, 2008 issue of Newsweek, Letters column, p 19: “For The Record, In your April 14 PERISCOPE INTERVIEW with Ben Stein (“You Say You Want An Evolution”), one of Stein’s responses contained a serious error: He said, “There are a number of scientists and academics who’ve been fired, denied tenure, lost tenure or lost grants because they even suggested the possibility of intelligent design. The most egregious is Richard Sternberg at the Smithsonian, the editor of a magazine that published a peer-reviewed paper about ID. He lost his job.” Sternberg has never been employed by the Smithsonian Institution. Since January 2004, he has been an unpaid research associate in the departments of invertebrate and vertebrate zoology at the Smithsonian’s National Museum of Natural History. Dr. Sternberg continues to enjoy full access to research facilities at the museum. Moreover, Stein’s assertion that Sternberg was removed from a Smithsonian publication is not true. The Proceedings of the Biological Society of Washington is an independent journal and is not affiliated with the Smithsonian.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-steins-new-movie-expelled/442482.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ben-steins-new-movie-expelled/442482.md?page=12)