# Bend, Oregon: on murdering child murderers {Moderator Instruction: Don't be the poster that turns this into a Gun Debate} **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 16, 2026, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bend-oregon-on-murdering-child-murderers-moderator-instruction-dont-be-the-poster-that-turns-this-into-a-gun-debate/1033894 "2026-10-16T18:11:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2026, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bend-oregon-on-murdering-child-murderers-moderator-instruction-dont-be-the-poster-that-turns-this-into-a-gun-debate/1033894/288 "2026-10-24T19:09:35Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > I’m really not following your question. If there’s a good choice, then that’s the one to take, as opposed to a bad choice. Some situations have multiple bad choices and no good ones. Some situations have multiple good ones. Some situations have some of each. In a few situations it’s hard to tell, at least in time to make a choice. I don’t see how any of that, or anything else I said, affects the “point” of something being good; and if you do see that, I don’t understand why you see it. I’m saying: if I’m in a situation where, of the choices I could make, you accurately say “that’s the one to take” about only one of them, then — well, that’s the one I’d take, right? If you went on to say “it’s good,” I’d reply “uh, I’m already sold on doing this; what you’re telling me is irrelevant.” And if you instead went on to say “it’s not good,” then I’d reply “so what? I’m already sold on doing this; what you’re telling me is irrelevant.” What does it add to say “it’s good” or “it’s not good” after you lay out the “that’s the one to take” part? ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2026, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bend-oregon-on-murdering-child-murderers-moderator-instruction-dont-be-the-poster-that-turns-this-into-a-gun-debate/1033894/289 "2026-10-25T14:16:07Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > What does it add to say “it’s good” or “it’s not good” after you lay out the “that’s the one to take” part? Because you use that info the next time you need to evaluate choices. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2026, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bend-oregon-on-murdering-child-murderers-moderator-instruction-dont-be-the-poster-that-turns-this-into-a-gun-debate/1033894/290 "2026-10-25T14:35:06Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Because you use that info the next time you need to evaluate choices Yup. You, and others who hear about it. Thanks, @puzzlegal. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2026, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bend-oregon-on-murdering-child-murderers-moderator-instruction-dont-be-the-poster-that-turns-this-into-a-gun-debate/1033894/291 "2026-10-25T15:00:14Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > > [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > > > What does it add to say “it’s good” or “it’s not good” after you lay out the “that’s the one to take” part? > > Because you use that info the next time you need to evaluate choices. But that just pushes it back a step. Say I’m in a situation with choices to evaluate, and you accurately clarify things for me by spelling out: “that’s the one to take.” And you add: “it’s good.” And, later, I’m in another situation with choices to evaluate, and you again clarify things for me by spelling out: “that’s the one to take.” And, this time, you add: “it’s not good.” Later. I’m in a third situation with choices to evaluate, and you clarify which is the one to take and that it’s good — and then I’m in a fourth situation with choices to evaluate, and you clarify which is the one to take but add that it’s not good. I’ll use the “which choice to take” info when evaluating future choices. What am I using the other part for? ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2026, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bend-oregon-on-murdering-child-murderers-moderator-instruction-dont-be-the-poster-that-turns-this-into-a-gun-debate/1033894/292 "2026-10-25T15:03:18Z")
Because there’s usually a good option, and you want to make sure the option you take is good when possible. Sometimes, though, you don’t have that possibility, so you take the best not-good option, or the only option. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2026, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bend-oregon-on-murdering-child-murderers-moderator-instruction-dont-be-the-poster-that-turns-this-into-a-gun-debate/1033894/293 "2026-10-25T15:17:08Z")
How can you properly evaluate choices without some sense of whether any of them are good or bad choices? Are you just taking “that’s the one to take in this situation” as some sort of black box, with no idea why it’s the recommended one to take in that situation? To take a much less loaded example: suppose somebody says, ‘ I was really hungry and the only thing to eat was those sugar covered donuts. I’m really not supposed to eat a lot of simple carbs, but there wasn’t any better choice, so I ate one even though they’re bad.’ Now suppose the next time that person, or someone else with similar diet recommendations, is really hungry there’s an entire buffet table available, including sugar covered donuts but also lots of vegetables, lean meats, and whole grains. Are you really going to take from the first incident only a recommendation to choose the donuts? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2026, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bend-oregon-on-murdering-child-murderers-moderator-instruction-dont-be-the-poster-that-turns-this-into-a-gun-debate/1033894/294 "2026-10-25T15:23:26Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > How can you properly evaluate choices without some sense of whether any of them are good or bad choices? Are you just taking “that’s the one to take in this situation” as some sort of black box, with no idea why it’s the recommended one to take in that situation? No, I’m saying that if you and I can lay out exactly why it’s the recommended one to take — and sometimes it’s one that’s good, and sometimes it’s one that isn’t good — then, with full _non-black-box_ understanding, I’m going to guide off the “that’s the one to take” reasoning when it happens to be good, and I’m going to guide off the “that’s the one to take” reasoning when it happens to not be good. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2026, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bend-oregon-on-murdering-child-murderers-moderator-instruction-dont-be-the-poster-that-turns-this-into-a-gun-debate/1033894/295 "2026-10-25T15:24:22Z")
> [@Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](#): > > This was a complex situation with tragic outcomes no matter what. I commend Kaleb for his quick actions and for preventing further tragedy. I sympathize with him for the anguish he has for having to kill a teen. > > And I am certain that all the braggerts out there with the “I would have blasted the hell out of the little bastard” mentality would have either 1. ran the other direction; 2. froze; or 3. made the situation worse. Right, that Kaleb feels the weight of his decision speaks well of him. This is never something to be taken lightly or casually. May he be well supported in dealing with it. I believe much hesitation in acknowledging he acted in a right manner arises from a concern about encouraging the mentality you mention in the second paragraph. As you say, what is to be commended is his decisiveness and willingness to take the risk to act, **not the fact that he _killed_ the assailant.** As is often discussed in use-of-force conversations, _the goal is to Stop The Threat_, the fatality is a foreseeable consequence but _should not be the prime driver_: “must stop him before he hurts any more people (and one of us may die)”, not “he needs killin’.” Had the assailant survived to stand trial Kaleb would have been just as commendable (and maybe would feel better… again, hope he gets all needed support). ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2026, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bend-oregon-on-murdering-child-murderers-moderator-instruction-dont-be-the-poster-that-turns-this-into-a-gun-debate/1033894/296 "2026-10-25T15:26:22Z")
Part of that reasoning, if I’m the one giving it, is going to include which of the available choices (if any) are good and which are bad. I can’t do that reasoning without it. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2026, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bend-oregon-on-murdering-child-murderers-moderator-instruction-dont-be-the-poster-that-turns-this-into-a-gun-debate/1033894/297 "2026-10-25T15:31:40Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > I believe much hesitation in acknowledging he acted in a right manner arises from a concern about encouraging the mentality you mention in the second paragraph I’m not hesitating to acknowledge that he acted in a right matter. I’m refusing to accept that he did a good thing. I’ve been saying, over and over, that sometimes it’s right to do a wrong thing. The distinction between acting rightly and doing a good thing seems to be impossible for some people to understand. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2026, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bend-oregon-on-murdering-child-murderers-moderator-instruction-dont-be-the-poster-that-turns-this-into-a-gun-debate/1033894/298 "2026-10-25T15:39:12Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > I’ve been saying, over and over, that sometimes it’s right to do a wrong thing. The distinction between acting rightly and doing a good thing seems to be impossible for some people to understand. I think I understand the distinction; I think I’m taking it just as seriously as you are, and, if anything, I think I’m taking it even _further._ I’m saying that — given a distinction between acting rightly and doing a good thing — I can choose to act rightly if it happens to involve doing a good thing, and I can choose to act rightly if it happens not to: precisely _because_ of that distinction. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2026, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bend-oregon-on-murdering-child-murderers-moderator-instruction-dont-be-the-poster-that-turns-this-into-a-gun-debate/1033894/299 "2026-10-25T16:01:14Z")
And I fully agree with that. I have no issue with you on that. What we do see with some here is an argument between “right” and “good” and whether they must lead to the same answer. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2026, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bend-oregon-on-murdering-child-murderers-moderator-instruction-dont-be-the-poster-that-turns-this-into-a-gun-debate/1033894/300 "2026-10-25T16:46:03Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > > [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > > > What does it add to say “it’s good” or “it’s not good” after you lay out the “that’s the one to take” part? > > Because you use that info the next time you need to evaluate choices. Isn’t that a good thing? If we agree that shooting a mass shooter in the process of mass shooting is better than the alternative, don’t we want people to make that same decision in the future if faced by the same scenario? ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2026, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bend-oregon-on-murdering-child-murderers-moderator-instruction-dont-be-the-poster-that-turns-this-into-a-gun-debate/1033894/301 "2026-10-25T17:17:39Z")
You can’t calibrate it that precisely. While I agree that killing people is sometimes better than any alternative, I’d really like that to be the last option on the table. Human history suggests that, as a species, we’re a little more inclined (for whatever reasons) to violent solutions than perhaps we need be. So rather than have an incident like this reinforce the easy, simplistic narratives, it’s good to make this one as “the right thing, but…” to ensure it’s not really a model. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2026, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bend-oregon-on-murdering-child-murderers-moderator-instruction-dont-be-the-poster-that-turns-this-into-a-gun-debate/1033894/302 "2026-10-25T17:24:16Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > While I agree that killing people is sometimes better than any alternative, I’d really like that to be the last option on the table. I agree. This seems to be one of those cases - lethal force was only employed because the situation was exc exceedingly dire. If someone killed someone in a situation where it _was not_ absolutely necessary, I would agree that we wouldn’t want to set a precedent based on those actions. But that wasn’t the case here. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2026, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bend-oregon-on-murdering-child-murderers-moderator-instruction-dont-be-the-poster-that-turns-this-into-a-gun-debate/1033894/303 "2026-10-25T17:31:15Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > While I agree that killing people is sometimes better than any alternative, I’d really like that to be the last option on the table. It was the only option, that teacher only had seconds to continue before she was overpowered, he retrieved his weapon and killed her then continued his spree. He chose a school specifically to maximize the body count. ---
**Author:** ![SunUp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea5d25/32.png) [@SunUp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SunUp)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2026, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bend-oregon-on-murdering-child-murderers-moderator-instruction-dont-be-the-poster-that-turns-this-into-a-gun-debate/1033894/304 "2026-10-25T23:33:12Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > He chose a school specifically to maximize the body count. Is this known? I had heard that the shooter had been a former student at the school; that would seem to point to a different motive than maximizing bloodshed. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2026, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bend-oregon-on-murdering-child-murderers-moderator-instruction-dont-be-the-poster-that-turns-this-into-a-gun-debate/1033894/305 "2026-10-25T23:38:28Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > It was the only option, that teacher only had seconds to continue before she was overpowered, he retrieved his weapon and killed her then continued his spree. > > He chose a school specifically to maximize the body count. It was probably the best option with the information he had; but we don’t actually know either of those things. We don’t know whether he was overpowering the teacher or whether she could have managed to hold him until the police (almost immediately) arrived. Giamanco probably didn’t either. And we don’t know why he chose the school; but we do know that he had been a student there, which may have been the reason. Plus which, of course, there were other options; including doing nothing, or shouting “freeze or I’ll shoot.” I’m not saying he should have done either of those things; but they were other options. ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2026, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bend-oregon-on-murdering-child-murderers-moderator-instruction-dont-be-the-poster-that-turns-this-into-a-gun-debate/1033894/306 "2026-10-26T01:53:44Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > Shot a 16-year-old dead, vigilante justice without due process of law. I can see an upside (prevented the further killing of schoolchildren and school personnel), but also a major downside (themselves murdering a child) 300 posts in, and I’m confused about what the debate is. First of all, he didn’t carry out “vigilante justice.” Justice has nothing to do with it. He didn’t mete out punishment. He didn’t seek retribution or enforce his own version of law. He shot a guy explicitly to save lives - that was his intention, and that was the actual result. There’s nothing “vigilante” about it, and nothing involving justice. So that’s not the debate. Unless you’re insane, evil, or misinformed, you can’t possibly think his actions were wrong. Not only does the end justify the means, but any one of us would’ve done the same thing. Any reasonable person would opt for shooting the shooter instead of letting him kill more kids. And nobody trained or experienced in any sort of firearm use would suggest there were alternative means or better solutions. Your OP doesn’t even pose a question or anything notably arguable. It just…states what happened. So what exactly is the debate here? ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2026, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bend-oregon-on-murdering-child-murderers-moderator-instruction-dont-be-the-poster-that-turns-this-into-a-gun-debate/1033894/307 "2026-10-26T02:05:06Z")
Sorry for the poor delineation. My response was more to the initial press coverage and government officials praising Giamanco without reservation, when I myself had praise but also serious reservations. I wanted to hear a broader perspective on the issue to see how we should deal with civilians killing minors. I think this has happened: I very quickly had to walk back my own initial position, and it seems the answer is largely philosophical, depending on how much of his rights / rights to exist the murderer gave up when he started killing minors (and an adult). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bend-oregon-on-murdering-child-murderers-moderator-instruction-dont-be-the-poster-that-turns-this-into-a-gun-debate/1033894.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bend-oregon-on-murdering-child-murderers-moderator-instruction-dont-be-the-poster-that-turns-this-into-a-gun-debate/1033894.md?page=16)