# Benedict XVI vs. Spain **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 22, 2005, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benedict-xvi-vs-spain/300629 "2005-04-22T17:00:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Menocchio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@Menocchio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Menocchio)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2005, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benedict-xvi-vs-spain/300629/1 "2005-04-22T17:00:10Z")
While Benny’s opposition to same-sex marriage is about as unexpected as a Monty Python reference in a thread with this subject matter, it’s still pitworthy, if only for how fast and hard he’s come down on the homos: [Sayeth The Beeb:](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4473001.stm) > [@](#): > > Pope Benedict XVI has responded firmly to the first challenge of his papacy by condemning a Spanish government bill allowing marriage between homosexuals. > > The bill, passed by parliament’s Socialist-dominated lower house, also allows gay couples to adopt. > > A senior Vatican official described the bill - which is likely to become law within a few months - as iniquitous. > > He said Roman Catholic officials should be prepared to lose their jobs rather than co-operate with the law. See folks, _this_ is why liberal non-Catholics were perturbed to see Ratzinger get the funny hat. The Church is here calling for its members to unilaterally deny the democratically-granted rights of Spanish citizens. Ultimately, it may only be an inconvenience, but it’s still an attempt to undermine the will and laws (and it’s a _good_ law) of a free government. this isn’t merely advocating a moral position to the faithful, it’s an attempt to dictate secular policy through non-democratic means, all to squash the rights of homosexuals. It’s also a pitiful attempt to bully Europe into being less secular. I’m hopeful that it will backfire. Not that I want to see the RCC decline, so much as I want to modernize or at least back the fuck off. I stayed out of the previous Benedict XVI threads because I wanted to give him a chance. Maybe a miracle would occur, maybe the responsibility would change him. Nope. He’s an asshole. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2005, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benedict-xvi-vs-spain/300629/2 "2005-04-22T17:07:28Z")
Yeah, it should be pretty interesting to see how this pans out. ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2005, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benedict-xvi-vs-spain/300629/3 "2005-04-22T17:27:28Z")
It’s not as if any priest is forced to perform a ceremony. I’m sure that quite a few of the marriages would be more civil ceremonies. Of course, I doubt Airman Doors, Mr. Moto, or the rest of the noisy horde defending the new pope will recant and apologize for their vitriol and the fact that they are already being proven wrong. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2005, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benedict-xvi-vs-spain/300629/4 "2005-04-22T17:35:46Z")
Meh. They tried to do the same thing here in Soviet Canuckistan – first the Archbishop of Ottawa threatened Jean Chrétien with excommunication, then the Bishop of Calgary suggested that homosexuality should be recriminalized. They were basically laughed off the stage, much like what happened when John Paul II summoned Rodríguez Zapatero to Rome last year. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2005, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benedict-xvi-vs-spain/300629/5 "2005-04-22T17:54:04Z")
> [@Menocchio](#): > > It’s also a pitiful attempt to bully Europe into being less secular. I’m hopeful that it will backfire Actually, it’s just _more of the same_. Simply a continuation of the last pointy-headed fossil’s policies. No need to contact Mrs Cleo in order to know it’ll backfire for it _already_ has: [Europeans Fast Falling Away From Church](http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/19/international/worldspecial2/19europe.html?pagewanted=print&position=) > [@](#): > > \*\* To understand the crisis of the Roman Catholic Church in Europe, visit the Seminary of St. Sulpice in Issy-Les-Moulineaux outside Paris. > > The vast 100-year-old structure, built on the ruins of a 17th-century chateau, contains vaulted ceilings, stained-glass windows and hundreds of rooms. Pope John Paul II visited here in 1980 on a trip in which he chastised the French for abandoning the church. > > But the seminary’s corridors are dark, the individual living quarters largely empty. Only 52 seminarians are studying this year, a decrease of 50 percent from a decade ago. Many of them come from as far away as Vietnam and Rwanda. > > “We could welcome more than 200 seminarians if they wanted to come,” said the Rev. Jean-Luc Védrine, the 45-year-old superior. “Today there are young people in France who have never seen a priest.” > > \ > > During his 26-year papacy, John Paul II used the force of his personality in dozens of trips around the Continent to try to bring back European Catholics who had fallen away. > > It was a disappointing exercise. > > Among Catholics, only 10 percent in the Netherlands, 12 percent in France, 15 percent in Germany and Austria, 18 percent in Spain and 25 percent in Italy attend Mass weekly. > > Granted, historical, demographic and cultural differences mean that the reasons vary from country to country. But in terms of an overall sense of spirituality on the Continent, there is a troubling trend. > > Only 21 percent of Europeans say that religion is “very important” to them, according to the often-cited European Values Study, conducted in 1999 and 2000 and published two years ago. A similar survey in the United States by the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life put the number at nearly 60 percent. \*\* Much more at source. Interesting read. Anyway, their choice is clear: continue to attempt to bully its faithful into obedience of anachronistic hogwash, thereby dooming themselves into irrelevance, or get with the times. Makes no difference to me. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2005, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benedict-xvi-vs-spain/300629/6 "2005-04-22T17:57:41Z")
It’ll be interesting to watch as the Church becomes more and more irrelevant. Great choice of a Pope. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2005, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benedict-xvi-vs-spain/300629/7 "2005-04-22T19:27:51Z")
Does the new pope expect to restart the Spanish inquisition? : Sigh : I expected a continuation of the same policies, but talk about showing your ugly priorities! And I also expected someone else to get ahead of me and report the Spanish thing… It is the comfy chair for you **Menocchio**!!! [http://orangecow.org/pythonet/linus/photos/noparrot/spanish8.jpg](http://orangecow.org/pythonet/linus/photos/noparrot/spanish8.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2005, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benedict-xvi-vs-spain/300629/8 "2005-04-22T19:48:55Z")
Well, Ratzinger _was_ in charge of the Holy Office of the Inquistition, er, I mean he was the Prefect of the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith, the name given to the Inquistion in 1965. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2005, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benedict-xvi-vs-spain/300629/9 "2005-04-22T20:06:25Z")
Yeah, right, and if one of the other Cardinals had been elected to the papacy he’d have given his blessing to this. Is that really what you guys are saying? Reality check: Ratzinger is not some lone nut far out on the extreme edge of the Roman Catholic church. Like it or not, he represents the mainstream. Hey, maybe he stole the election? ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2005, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benedict-xvi-vs-spain/300629/10 "2005-04-22T20:08:20Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Does the new pope expect to restart the Spanish inquisition? Well, it would be unexpected! 😃 Odds are that any same-sex marriage in Spain would be a civil one; I don’t believe there are any churches there that would perform them, though I could be mistaken. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2005, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benedict-xvi-vs-spain/300629/11 "2005-04-22T20:25:46Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > Yeah, right, and if one of the other Cardinals had been elected to the papacy he’d have given his blessing to this. > > Is that really what you guys are saying? Reality check: Ratzinger is not some lone nut far out on the extreme edge of the Roman Catholic church. Like it or not, he represents the mainstream. Your point being? ---
**Author:** ![Menocchio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@Menocchio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Menocchio)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2005, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benedict-xvi-vs-spain/300629/12 "2005-04-22T20:32:22Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > Yeah, right, and if one of the other Cardinals had been elected to the papacy he’d have given his blessing to this. > > Is that really what you guys are saying? Reality check: Ratzinger is not some lone nut far out on the extreme edge of the Roman Catholic church. Like it or not, he represents the mainstream. Of course he is. Nobody expected him to bless Spanish same-sex message. My complaint here is that he’s making a public fight about it before he’s even introduced himself and the strong-arm tactics. My two complaints are his priorities and the fact that he’s urging for a bureaucratic coup against the will of an elected legislature and the general bigotry… I’ll come in again. Nobody expected him to bless Spanish same sex marriages. Amongst my complaints here is that he’s making this fight now when he’s setting the tone for his papacy, that he’s urging Catholics to not do their legal duty and to deny meeting the rights of fellow Spanards, and of course, fighting against gay marriage, especially outside of your own folk, is an asshole thing to do. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2005, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benedict-xvi-vs-spain/300629/13 "2005-04-22T20:43:39Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Actually, it’s just _more of the same_. Simply a continuation of the last pointy-headed fossil’s policies. > > No need to contact Mrs Cleo in order to know it’ll backfire for it _already_ has: > > [Europeans Fast Falling Away From Church](http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/19/international/worldspecial2/19europe.html?pagewanted=print&position=) > > \*\* > > Much more at source. Interesting read. > > Anyway, their choice is clear: continue to attempt to bully its faithful into obedience of anachronistic hogwash, thereby dooming themselves into irrelevance, or get with the times. > > Makes no difference to me. I agree 100%. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. Europeans who are Catholics are largely Catholic in name only. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2005, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benedict-xvi-vs-spain/300629/14 "2005-04-22T20:51:12Z")
AFAIK, marriages in Spain always start with the secular ceremony. For legal purposes, that’s the marriage that counts. The ceremony in church is purely religious, and of course, as such, La Santa Sede can decide whatever they want. And _El Papa_ can blather on all he likes. Most Spaniards under 50 won’t give a rats ass. Especially since Spain’s been a very good place for gays for quite a long time. I saw gays holding hands in public, kissing in bars, a long time earlier in Spain than in ‘liberal’ Sweden. ---
**Author:** ![Arwin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/51bf81/32.png) [@Arwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arwin)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2005, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benedict-xvi-vs-spain/300629/15 "2005-04-22T21:39:13Z")
> [@The Gaspode](#): > > AFAIK, marriages in Spain always start with the secular ceremony. For legal purposes, that’s the marriage that counts. The ceremony in church is purely religious, and of course, as such, La Santa Sede can decide whatever they want. > > And _El Papa_ can blather on all he likes. Most Spaniards under 50 won’t give a rats ass. Especially since Spain’s been a very good place for gays for quite a long time. I saw gays holding hands in public, kissing in bars, a long time earlier in Spain than in ‘liberal’ Sweden. Spain is also the first country as far as I know that has a city (Barcelona I think) where naturalism is legalised in the whole city. You are legally allowed to walk around there bare-naked. Impressive. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2005, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benedict-xvi-vs-spain/300629/16 "2005-04-22T22:10:39Z")
> [@Arwin](#): > > Spain is also the first country as far as I know that has a city (Barcelona I think) where naturalism is legalised in the whole city. You are legally allowed to walk around there bare-naked. Impressive. 😃 Naturism. Naturalism is what they called the general study of nature a couple hundred years ago. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2005, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benedict-xvi-vs-spain/300629/17 "2005-04-22T22:31:17Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Naturism. Naturalism is what they called the general study of nature a couple hundred years ago. 🙂 Many people who major in biology become naturalists. Not naturists, unfortunately. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/74df32/32.png) [@The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Devil_s_Grandmother)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2005, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benedict-xvi-vs-spain/300629/18 "2005-04-22T23:38:14Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > Many people who major in biology become naturalists. Not naturists, unfortunately. 😉 \ Unfortunately or no depends on the student body, Polycarp. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2005, 9:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benedict-xvi-vs-spain/300629/19 "2005-04-23T09:31:37Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Your point being? My point being that, _pace_ an earlier poster who commented “See folks, this is why liberal non-Catholics were perturbed to see Ratzinger get the funny hat.”, no matter whose brows the funny hat towered over the response from the Vatican would have been identical. Up to speed now? ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2005, 9:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benedict-xvi-vs-spain/300629/20 "2005-04-23T09:33:31Z")
> [@The Gaspode](#): > > And _El Papa_ can blather on all he likes. Most Spaniards under 50 won’t give a rats ass. Especially since Spain’s been a very good place for gays for quite a long time. I saw gays holding hands in public, kissing in bars, a long time earlier in Spain than in ‘liberal’ Sweden. All the more astonishing when you consider that it was _severely_ illegal no more than thirty years ago. There was, in fact, a recent case of a guy who was hassled going through the border (returning to Spain, IIRC) because he had a criminal record for gay sex from during the Franco era. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benedict-xvi-vs-spain/300629.md?page=2)