# Benedict XVI vs. Spain **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 22, 2005, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benedict-xvi-vs-spain/300629 "2005-04-22T17:00:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![11811](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/1/9d8465/32.png) [@11811](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/11811)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2005, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benedict-xvi-vs-spain/300629/41 "2005-04-24T12:38:20Z")
> [@Menocchio](#): > > Nobody expected him to bless Spanish same sex marriages. Amongst my complaints here is that he’s making this fight now when he’s setting the tone for his papacy, that he’s urging Catholics to not do their legal duty and to deny meeting the rights of fellow Spanards, and of course, fighting against gay marriage, especially outside of your own folk, is an asshole thing to do. what about the ruthless efficiency of the… ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2005, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benedict-xvi-vs-spain/300629/42 "2005-04-24T13:15:30Z")
> [@Tuckerfan](#): > > I’ve only skimmed [one document](http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20040731_collaboration_en.html) and to be honest, I can’t tell what the hell it’s talking about. Looks to me like he’s blaming women for pretty much everything, what with their uncontrolled animal lusts and unclean emotionalism etc. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2005, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benedict-xvi-vs-spain/300629/43 "2005-04-24T16:11:47Z")
> [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > Looks to me like he’s blaming women for pretty much everything, what with their uncontrolled animal lusts and unclean emotionalism etc. Except that he isn’t, really. The passage is against “gender politics” and in it he is claiming that they are based on an ideological “denial of the reality” of sexual differences. It’s the well-worn, oft-repeated claim that feminism/gender politics have gone beyond the “legitimate” point of seeking equal opportunity in the economy/polity, and on to seeking a society with no clear definitions of gender roles or sexuality. Fairly bogus, if you take the view that indeed “gender roles” ARE an arbitrary social construct – but hardly medieval. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hook](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ccd318/32.png) [@The\_Hook](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hook)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2005, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benedict-xvi-vs-spain/300629/44 "2005-04-24T19:15:24Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > [Europeans Fast Falling Away From Church](http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/19/international/worldspecial2/19europe.html?pagewanted=print&position=) Surprise, surprise. Even more baffling is why they chose a German Pope instead of a Latin American Pope, where 99% of the population is Catholic. Oh yeah, people of “lesser” countries are never going to make the cut. :rolleyes: Bad strategy, Mr. Pope. Your next hand? ---
**Author:** ![Avenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de0a6/32.png) [@Avenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avenger)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2005, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benedict-xvi-vs-spain/300629/45 "2005-04-24T19:21:31Z")
> [@Reeder](#): > > [The Ratzinger Fan Club: Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith](http://www.ratzingerfanclub.com/cdf.html) > > It sure sounds like the department he headed could have been called the RCC gestapo. According to the biography on that site, nothing of note has occured in Ratzi’s life since 1981… ---
**Author:** ![Menocchio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@Menocchio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Menocchio)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2005, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benedict-xvi-vs-spain/300629/46 "2005-04-24T22:18:10Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > meeeb meeeb meeeeb Here comes the fruit light brigade. Give it to him boys! > > oh. You don’t mind me calling you fruits, fairies, poofs, girlie men and umm… turd burglars do you? I guess it can’t be any worse than calling the pope: Benny asshole, ratman or ratbastard or Christianity anachronistic hogwash and such. So get to him lads! That’s the spirit! I’d say that poking fun of a public figure’s name is, while not the most mature of deabting tactics 😉 , certainly no where near as assholish a thing to do as hurl epithets at an entire oppressed minority. Benedict is a big boy, he can take it. Hell, if he were just preaching bigotry to his flock, I’d just roll my eyes and be thankful that my church isn’t so backwards (yes, Christians aren’t necessary opposed to gay marriage, especially if it isn’t in their church, myself, and I daresay a bunch of Spanards are examples of such). And I do wish people would knock it off with the Hitler Youth stuff. It was compulsory and he was a kid, that’s good enough for me. We’re not talking about the SS here. Besides, it’s not like he hasn’t given us enough to grouse about when he was grown up and freer to act his mind. ---
**Author:** ![Avenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de0a6/32.png) [@Avenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avenger)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2005, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benedict-xvi-vs-spain/300629/47 "2005-04-24T22:29:09Z")
> [@](#): > > And I do wish people would knock it off with the Hitler Youth stuff. It was compulsory and he was a kid, that’s good enough for me. We’re not talking about the SS here. Besides, it’s not like he hasn’t given us enough to grouse about when he was grown up and freer to act his mind. Yeah, but the Hitler Youth stuff just lends itself to better jokes. What’s the point of having a Pope if not for us heathens to relentlessly take the piss out of the anachronistic old fart? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2005, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benedict-xvi-vs-spain/300629/48 "2005-04-25T02:16:27Z")
> [@The Hook](#): > > Surprise, surprise. Even more baffling is why they chose a German Pope instead of a Latin American Pope, where 99% of the population is Catholic. Oh yeah, people of “lesser” countries are never going to make the cut. :rolleyes: Bad strategy, Mr. Pope. Your next hand? Mustn’t forget, even amongst the elite there are castes. Under the current system, being anywhere close to _identifiable_ with [Liberation Theology](http://www.landreform.org/boff2.htm) and/or a Jesuit (gaaasp!) makes you nigh close to an “untouchable.” Next hand? Well, they wouldn’t be the first religion to fade into irrelevance, now would they? A wider chasm between Church and mainstream followers I can hardly phantom. Ya think they’d welcome a secular humanist as an image consultant? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2005, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benedict-xvi-vs-spain/300629/49 "2005-04-25T03:13:02Z")
> [@](#): > > And I do wish people would knock it off with the Hitler Youth stuff. It was compulsory and he was a kid, that’s good enough for me. Except that, as several people have pointed out, the Pope is now telling people they have a duty to disobey the law if it’s immoral. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2005, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benedict-xvi-vs-spain/300629/50 "2005-04-25T03:23:22Z")
> [@Little Nemo](#): > > Except that, as several people have pointed out, the Pope is now telling people they have a duty to disobey the law if it’s immoral. I will grant completely that 14-year-old Josef Ratziger was made a member of Hitlerjugend completely involuntarily; an undocumented source says that his high school headmaster enrolled the entire student body at once. And his father was outspoken in opposition to Hitler, even though that was a dangerous stance. However, it’s coming perilously close to Godwin’s Law but needs to be said: how does being an ostensible even if not actual youthful supporter of Hitler compare with officiating at gay civil marriages, on the scale of heinousness used by Benedict XVI? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2005, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benedict-xvi-vs-spain/300629/51 "2005-04-25T03:44:13Z")
> [@](#): > > However, it’s coming perilously close to Godwin’s Law but needs to be said: how does being an ostensible even if not actual youthful supporter of Hitler compare with officiating at gay civil marriages, on the scale of heinousness used by Benedict XVI? Believe me if you wish, I am not trying to be facetious, but the answer to your query appears obvious to me: > [@indeterminate religious guy/gal](#): > > Because I have a direct line to the supernatural — gods – and I couldn’t possibly be wrong in my interpretation of his/their will _Ad infinitum_. More of same at 11. ---
**Author:** ![Estilicon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Estilicon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Estilicon)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2005, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benedict-xvi-vs-spain/300629/52 "2005-04-25T14:13:02Z")
> [@The Hook](#): > > Surprise, surprise. Even more baffling is why they chose a German Pope instead of a Latin American Pope, where 99% of the population is Catholic. Oh yeah, people of “lesser” countries are never going to make the cut. :rolleyes: Bad strategy, Mr. Pope. Your next hand? Actually according to the news Cardinal Jorge Mario Bergoglio, (look him up in Wikipedia I can’t link it), was running in the second place with 40 votes. He is both a jesuist and was born in a “lesser country”. Actually I resent you calling latin American countries “lesser countries” and you didn’t provide a cite that the Church think og them as that, (atually the majority of the Cardinals are now Latin American and they still chose Ratzinger… it’s supposed to be a universal church after all).- ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2005, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benedict-xvi-vs-spain/300629/53 "2005-04-25T16:18:54Z")
[Assessment of Jorge Mario Bergoglio](http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:dSi2RGLVqpYJ:atheism.about.com/od/papalelections/p/Bergoglio.htm+Jorge+Mario+Bergoglio&hl=en) > [@](#): > > Jorge Mario Bergoglio is a strong supporter of helping the poor. When he was made cardinal in 2001, he discouraged people from spending the money to fly to Rome to celebrate with him and advised that they instead donate the funds to help alleviate poverty at home. He lives in a simple apartment and cooks his own meals. > > Bergoglio does not, however, spend a great deal of time preaching about social justice. He instead preaches about the importance of spirituality and assumes that a correct understanding of God will naturally lead people to care more about the poor. > > **Probably the strongest factor working against Bergoglio is the fact that he is a Jesuit. He would be the first Jesuit pope if elected, but there continues to be strong anti-Jesuit feelings within the Catholic church, and even some Jesuits oppose the idea of one of their own rising to the office of pope.** BTW, **Estilicon** , I may be mistaken but by using quotation marks I think **The Hook** was ridiculing said sentiment as implied by others in the Vatican hierarchy. As for the "majority"of Cardinals being Latin Americans, two points. One, I don’t think that is [factually correct](http://www.catholic-pages.com/hierarchy/cardinals_list.asp?orderby=Nationality&submit=Reorder!), and two, the majority of them were in fact elevated in rank by none other than JP-II, and what were the odds he’d pick an outright Liberal? Slim or none? ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2005, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benedict-xvi-vs-spain/300629/54 "2005-04-25T16:25:04Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > the majority of them were in fact elevated in rank by none other than JP-II, and what were the odds he’d pick an outright Liberal? Slim or none? In fact our local cardinal is one the people whom I dislike the most in the world. And funny enough the local populace is not too thrilled with him either. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2005, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benedict-xvi-vs-spain/300629/55 "2005-04-25T16:58:03Z")
> [@Mighty\_Girl](#): > > In fact our local cardinal is one the people whom I dislike the most in the world. And funny enough the local populace is not too thrilled with him either. You and me both. Good old, [Nicolas “Armani” Lopez Rodriguez](http://www.catholic-pages.com/hierarchy/cardinals_bio.asp?ref=97), who’s fond of little more than hobnobbing with the rich and powerful. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2005, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benedict-xvi-vs-spain/300629/56 "2005-04-26T02:09:51Z")
> [@](#): > > As for the "majority"of Cardinals being Latin Americans, two points. One, I don’t think that is factually correct, and two, the majority of them were in fact elevated in rank by none other than JP-II, and what were the odds he’d pick an outright Liberal? Slim or none? Latin America contains the largest Catholic population but the largest group of Cardinals are European. There are 58 European Cardinal electors and 23 Latin American Cardinal electors. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hook](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ccd318/32.png) [@The\_Hook](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hook)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2005, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benedict-xvi-vs-spain/300629/57 "2005-04-26T04:22:04Z")
> [@Estilicon](#): > > Actually I resent you calling latin American countries “lesser countries” and you didn’t provide a cite that the Church think og them as that Being both a Costa Rican and an atheist I am doubly offended by this thread. 😃 No, I don’t think the Church thinks ill of Latin America (“The Church”, what is that anyway, a Shyamalan film?), but Europe and the Vatican do, at least in these matters. I can’t provide statistics, I’m not your man there, but think of it like this: the chances of a latino cardinal being elected Pope are as good as a gay, black woman elected for the presidency of the United States (in my humble and pitworthy opinion). ---
**Author:** ![ouryL](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ouryl/32/6067_2.png) [@ouryL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ouryL)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2005, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benedict-xvi-vs-spain/300629/58 "2005-04-26T06:25:08Z")
> [@The Gaspode](#): > > :snort: that’s ::_snort_:: ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2005, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benedict-xvi-vs-spain/300629/59 "2005-04-27T06:43:31Z")
> [@Little Nemo](#): > > Except that, as several people have pointed out, the Pope is now telling people they have a duty to disobey the law if it’s immoral. Which he did: he deserted. Really, there’s way better stuff to criticize Benedict on than this. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2005, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benedict-xvi-vs-spain/300629/60 "2005-04-27T18:21:15Z")
The Catholic church is just having problems aquiring new priests now that it is socially acceptable to be gay. The church is no longer a necessary haven for homosexuals. Their monopoly on homosexuality has disappeared, and people have the nerve to be upset at them for inducting the young alterboys into their ranks. :eek: 🆒 > **[Pope Benedict XVI](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Cardinal_Ratzinger)** > > Pope Benedict XVI (Latin: Benedictus XVI; Italian: Benedetto XVI; German: Benedikt XVI.; born Joseph Aloisius Ratzinger, German: \[ˈjoːzɛf ʔaˈlɔʏzi̯ʊs ˈʁatsɪŋɐ\], on 16 April 1927) is a retired prelate of the Catholic Church who served as the head of the Church and the sovereign of the Vatican City State from 2005 until his resignation in 2013. Benedict's election as pope occurred in the 2005 papal conclave that followed the death of Pope John Paul II. Benedict chose to be known by the title "po... > [@](#): > > In 1943, when he was 16, Ratzinger was drafted with many of his classmates into the FlaK (anti-aircraft artillery corps). They were posted first to Ludwigsfeld, north of Munich, as part of a detachment responsible for guarding a BMW aircraft engine plant. Next they were sent to Unterföhring, northwest of Munich, and briefly to Innsbruck. From Innsbruck their unit went to Gilching to protect the jet fighter base and to attack Allied bombers as they massed to begin their runs towards Munich. At Gilching, Ratzinger served in a telephone communications post. > > On September 10, 1944, his class was released from the Corps. Returning home, Ratzinger had already received a new draft notice for the Reichsarbeitsdienst. He was posted to the Hungarian border area of Austria which had been annexed by Germany in the Anschluss of 1938. Here he was trained in the “cult of the spade” and when Hungary was occupied by the Red Army Ratzinger was put to work setting up anti-tank defences in preparation for the expected Red Army offensive. On November 20, 1944 his unit was released from service. > > Ratzinger again returned home. After three weeks passed, he was drafted into the German army at Munich and assigned to the infantry barracks in the center of Traunstein, the city near which his family lived. After basic infantry training, Ratzinger served at various posts around the city with his unit. They were never sent to the front. > > In late April or early May, days or weeks before the German surrender, Ratzinger deserted. Desertion was widespread during the last weeks of the war, even though punishable by death (executions, frequently extrajudicial, continued to the end); diminished morale and the greatly diminished risk of prosecution from a preoccupied and disorganized German military contributed to the growing wave of soldiers looking toward self-preservation. Ratzinger left the city of Traunstein and returned to his nearby village. “I used a little-known back road hoping to get through unmolested. But, as I walked out of a railroad underpass, two soldiers were standing at their posts, and for a moment the situation was extremely critical for me. Thank God that they, too, had had their fill of war and did not want to become murderers.” They used the excuse of his arm being in a sling to let him go home. He ‘deserted’ when it was clear Germany had lost, just like all the other deserters. Godwin’s law only applies to calling a POSTER a nazi, not the subject matter, especially when the subject matter was factually affiliated with the nazis and killed people in the name of the Nazi cause. In the previous post about gender politics. I agree largely with Ratzinger about gender politics. I am tired of the idea that the difference between men and women is purely social conditioning. Spread a man and a woman’s legs for my cite. The internal body chemistry is completely different. I don’t think his message was convoluted at all, and it made a lot of sense. On the other hand, I unlike the pope do not believe that the Catholic Church’s authority supersedes that of the government. However, I also do not believe that governmental figures are absolved of responsibility for prosecuting the government’s agendas. So a civil servant is wholly responsible for marrying a gay couple, just as a soldier is wholly responsible for the deaths he causes, just as a cop is responsible for every drug arrest he makes. So from this point of view people need to decide whether or not their moral beliefs are in conflict with legality. The difference between myself and the Pope is that I believe this is an individual choice a person makes, and he believes it is an organizational choice. Either way, the personal responsibility is on the individual that performs the act, and any individual up the hierarchy that supports such an action. Me, I think that marriage should not be a governmental issue at all, and that there shouldn’t be laws governing it at all. Let people fuck/marry whomever they like, in whatever quantity, any position, in public parks or not. In America marriage is more or less the most simple form of incorporation. Let it stay at that, if people want to incorporate their sexual relationship then why try to stop them? Erek [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benedict-xvi-vs-spain/300629.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benedict-xvi-vs-spain/300629.md?page=4)