# Benghazi Attack for Dummies. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 8, 2013, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466 "2013-11-08T23:46:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2013, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/201 "2013-11-20T05:25:58Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Show us a transcript of the press conference you are thinking of. Susan Rice went on the Sunday Morning News programs. > > Rice blamed the attack on heavily armed insurgents for the attack on the Consulate where Stevens was killed. I have never heard any Admin official or the President blame mortar attack on the CIA Annex on the youTube video. > We need a cite … something more than your memory is required. I’m fairly certain it was covered to death. [cite](http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2012/11/16/flashback-what-susan-rice-said-about-benghazi/) ---
**Author:** ![Wolf333](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolf333/32/3460_2.png) [@Wolf333](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolf333)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2013, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/202 "2013-11-20T06:50:50Z")
> [@Wolf333](#): > > “Ready 24/7” does not mean fully equipped and sitting sitting on a taxiway ready to take off at a moments notice. You have to take more into consideration than just the transit time.) > [@Magiver](#): > > Nobody suggested this. Wow. YOU suggested this. YOU are the one who said that we could airdrop special ops troops, along with their motorcycles and light vehicles from magical aircraft that might also provide close air support\*. YOU are the one who said that we could get special ops troops there in time, from anywhere in Europe. You suggested this. removed insult ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2013, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/203 "2013-11-20T07:16:11Z")
> [@Wolf333](#): > > Wow. > > YOU suggested this. YOU are the one who said that we could airdrop special ops troops, along with their motorcycles and light vehicles from magical aircraft that might also provide close air support\*. YOU are the one who said that we could get special ops troops there in time, from anywhere in Europe. > > You suggested this. > > removed insult Wow right back at you. I never said they were sitting on the runway in a magical aircraft. This went on for 8 hrs. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2013, 8:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/204 "2013-11-20T08:31:37Z")
There was nothing Obama could do, but dammit he should have done something! It was an attack that went on for 8 hours, except when it didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2013, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/205 "2013-11-20T08:47:11Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > There was nothing Obama could do, but dammit he should have done something! It was an attack that went on for 8 hours, except when it didn’t. There may very well have been nothing he could do. That’s a 20/20 hindsight question. But at the time nobody knew how long the attack would last so where is the decision model in this? The report cited early did not read well at all for anybody. And that’s not an attack on Obama. Easily breached grounds, fuel sitting outside the buildings, and a limited number of security personnel sound like something out of the 70’s. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2013, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/206 "2013-11-20T08:58:35Z")
You’re quite right; all of our embassies and consulates should have an unlimited number of security personnel. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2013, 9:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/207 "2013-11-20T09:43:03Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I’m fairly certain it was covered to death. [cite](http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2012/11/16/flashback-what-susan-rice-said-about-benghazi/) This is an explicit quote from Ambassador Rice where she \*\*blames the attack \*\*on \*\*“some individual clusters of \*\*(protest-hijacking) **extremists who came with heavier weapons** ”. > [@](#): > > We believe that folks in Benghazi, a small number of people came to the embassy to — or to the consulate, rather, to replicate the sort of challenge that was posed in Cairo. And then as that unfolded, it seems to have been hijacked, let us say, by some individual clusters of extremists who came with heavier weapons, weapons that as you know in — in the wake of the revolution in Libya are — are quite common and accessible. And it then evolved from there. > > [http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2012/11/16/flashback-what-susan-rice-said-about-benghazi/](http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2012/11/16/flashback-what-susan-rice-said-about-benghazi/) So Magiver’s cite establishes that Rice: (a) was not speaking with ‘certainty what transpired’ just yet and… (b) the best assessment _(that was we know now was provided by the CIA in talking points)_ was a ‘small number of people came to - the consulate to replicate the sort of challenge that was posed in Cairo.’, and… (c) the attack was actually blamed on \*\*“some individual clusters of \*\*(protest-hijacking) **extremists who came with heavier weapons** ”. > [@](#): > > MS. RICE: Well, Jake, first of all, it’s important to know that there’s an FBI investigation that has begun and will take some time to be completed. **That will tell us with certainty what transpired**. > > But our current best assessment, based on the information that we have at present, is that, in fact, what this began as, it was a spontaneous — not a premeditated — response to what had transpired in Cairo. In Cairo, as you know, a few hours earlier, there was a violent protest that was undertaken in reaction to this very offensive video that was disseminated. > > We believe that folks in Benghazi, a small number of people came to the embassy to — or to the consulate, rather, to replicate the sort of challenge that was posed in Cairo. Thus Magiver has provided a cite that not only shows that Magiver is wrong but that I am absolutely right. The attack was not blamed on the video. If a small number of people had shown up to replicate what happened in Cairo as Rice said then Stevens would not have been killed. He was killed as Rice said by extremists who brought heavy weapons and then hijacked what was believed to be a small crowd gathered to protest. There were no hijackers who brought heavy weapons to the violent protest in Cairo. Rice was not blaming the deaths of Stevens and Smith on the protest or a video. Those words are not what she said. She repeated the talking points prepared by the CIA verbatim. She blamed the deaths of Stevens and Smith on heavily armed attackers and her entire statement was qualified with her notice that the investigation would tell us what actually transpired. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2013, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/208 "2013-11-20T09:55:40Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > He was left to die. The people who took him to the hospital were locals. No attempt was made by the State Department. > > Do you understand the distinction here? whether or not they could have saved him was unknown at the start of the attack. Magiver gets deeper and deeper into pushing an argument that has no basis in facts or reality. Magiver’s charge and complaint against the President is that Obama within the first hour of the chaos of the attack and the fires and smoke is that Obama and Secretary Clinton deliberately ordered or directed someone to leave Stevens behind so he could die. There was an attempt at rescue and move him to the CIA Annex with all the others rescued. He was separated from the larger number of people and I believe those CIA guys and the sixty Libyans who came and fought off the heavily armed attackers tried their damned best to save all those people including the ambassador. I do not believe I have heard this same version of ‘left to die’ as Magiver is positioning now as a basis for his argument. Magiver is going way beyond the anti-Obama political talking points on this. Magiver is really getting out there now. This version of events by Magiver is tasteless and obscene to suggest that the CIA and Libyans who risked their lives to save the lives of those at the consulate left Stevens behind to die. ---
**Author:** ![Wolf333](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolf333/32/3460_2.png) [@Wolf333](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolf333)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2013, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/209 "2013-11-20T10:11:13Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Wow right back at you. I never said they were sitting on the runway in a magical aircraft. This went on for 8 hrs. You did say that we could have had special ops troops (from anywhere in Europe), with motorcycles and lightweight vehicles (based at Ft Benning, Georgia) dropped in from aircraft that could also provide close air support. Within the hour. You know, you’re right… you never said anything about magical aircraft. Your entire plan relies on magic. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2013, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/210 "2013-11-20T12:13:34Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I’m fairly certain it was covered to death. [cite](http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2012/11/16/flashback-what-susan-rice-said-about-benghazi/) More from what Magiver cited there that proves Magiver is entirely wrong about the attack and the dead Americans being blamed on a youTube video: I have bolded where Rice blamed on who it should have been blamed on and was: > [@](#): > > MS. RICE: Well, let us– let me tell you the– the best information we have at present. First of all, there’s an FBI investigation which is ongoing. And we look to that investigation to give us the definitive word as to what transpired. But putting together the best information that we have available to us today our current assessment is that what happened in Benghazi was in fact initially a spontaneous reaction to what had just transpired hours before in Cairo, almost a copycat of– of the demonstrations against our facility in Cairo, which were prompted, of course, by the video. What we think then transpired in Benghazi is that **opportunistic extremist elements came to the consulate as this was unfolding. They came with heavy weapons which unfortunately are readily available in post revolutionary Libya. And it escalated into a much more violent episode. Obviously, that’s– that’s our best judgment now.** We’ll await the results of the investigation. And the president has been very clear–we’ll work with the Libyan authorities to bring those responsible to justice. And again she said that was our best judgment now: We later leaned that there was no major protest - that the CIA got that wrong. But the fact remains that those who were blamed for the attack were the ‘opportunistic extremist elements’ who came with ‘heavy weapons’. ---
**Author:** ![Acewiza](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f475e1/32.png) [@Acewiza](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acewiza)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2013, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/211 "2013-11-20T13:37:13Z")
Let me break it down for those of you with the proclivity to over-think your political motives. Maybe you can do the math: “opportunistic extremist elements” + 9-11 = Al Queida Planned Terrorist attack + poorly guarded ambassador/consulate = security fail. State Dept budget + Hillary Clinton = dead ambassador(&others) CIA + FBI investigation = total bullshit ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2013, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/212 "2013-11-20T14:15:38Z")
> [@Acewiza](#): > > Let me break it down for those of you with the proclivity to over-think your political motives. Maybe you can do the math: > > “opportunistic extremist elements” + 9-11 = Al Queida > > Planned Terrorist attack + poorly guarded ambassador/consulate = security fail. > > State Dept budget + Hillary Clinton = dead ambassador(&others) > > CIA + FBI investigation = total bullshit First, there doesn’t appear to be any known evidence that Al Qaida conducted the attack, and that is one of the errors of the 60 Minutes report. [Cite.](http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2013/11/13/208446/questions-about-60-minutes-benghazi.html) Second, it’s clear that Republicans in Congress kept cutting the State Department security budget, so I concede that point. And finally, it’s also clear that you think any investigation that doesn’t come up with a partisan, Vince Foster-style conspiracy theory is “total bullshit.” But thanks for your breakdown, it illuminates who is making serious, reasoned, evidence-based points and who has a political axe to grind. ---
**Author:** ![Acewiza](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f475e1/32.png) [@Acewiza](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acewiza)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2013, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/213 "2013-11-20T14:18:17Z")
Contriving one ad hoc hypothesis after another to defend anyone in authority over this matter does nothing to change the facts. They fucked up royally. Get over it. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2013, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/214 "2013-11-20T16:03:09Z")
> [@Wolf333](#): > > You did say that we could have had special ops troops (from anywhere in Europe), with motorcycles and lightweight vehicles (based at Ft Benning, Georgia) dropped in from aircraft that could also provide close air support. Within the hour. > > You know, you’re right… you never said anything about magical aircraft. Your entire plan relies on magic. You keep saying it’s so difficult to launch an airplane with trained personnel and equipment from Europe without explanation. When I chartered commercial aircraft for a living I could get one launched in 30 minutes. There’s nothing magical about it. There’s nothing magical about the equipment used in a military operation. There’s nothing magical about putting a crew in the cockpit. You just hand wave it away with rhetoric. It’s “magic”. No, it’s not magic. When the attack started the decision makers had no way of knowing the length of time involved. Providing additional security should have been standard operating procedure. Explain why you think the attempt should not have been made. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2013, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/215 "2013-11-20T16:09:24Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > You keep saying it’s so difficult to launch an airplane with trained personnel and equipment from Europe without explanation. When I chartered commercial aircraft for a living I could get one launched in 30 minutes. There’s nothing magical about it. There’s nothing magical about the equipment used in a military operation. There’s nothing magical about putting a crew in the cockpit. > > You just hand wave it away with rhetoric. It’s “magic”. No, it’s not magic. When the attack started the decision makers had no way of knowing the length of time involved. Providing additional security should have been standard operating procedure. > > Explain why you think the attempt should not have been made. Do you concede that such an effort would have been too late to save Stevens and Smith, and that no rapidly-deployed force could protect the CIA annex roof from an indirect-fire weapon with a range of over three miles? ---
**Author:** ![Acewiza](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f475e1/32.png) [@Acewiza](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acewiza)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2013, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/216 "2013-11-20T16:09:29Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Explain why you think the attempt should not have been made. From the perspective of those in authority over this matter, it was clear they had already fucked up royally, so immediately launching the cover-up and damage control was given priority. Any resultant confusion about who did/said what/when would only enhance possibilities of achieving the goal of covering their own asses. ---
**Author:** ![Acewiza](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f475e1/32.png) [@Acewiza](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acewiza)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2013, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/217 "2013-11-20T16:28:47Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Do you concede that such an effort would have been too late to save Stevens and Smith, and that no rapidly-deployed force could protect the CIA annex roof from an indirect-fire weapon with a range of over three miles? I would concede this particular ad-hoc hypothesis for disqualifying the need for a coordinated, authoritative military response to be nonsense. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2013, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/218 "2013-11-20T16:34:44Z")
> [@Acewiza](#): > > “opportunistic extremist elements” + 9-11 = Al Queida > > Planned Terrorist attack + poorly guarded ambassador/consulate = security fail. > > State Dept budget + Hillary Clinton = dead ambassador(&others) > > CIA + FBI investigation = total bullshit > [@Acewiza](#): > > Contriving one ad hoc hypothesis after another…does nothing to change the facts. My dearest Kettle, How I long to see the depths of your ebon hue again. Yours achingly, Pot ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2013, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/219 "2013-11-20T16:34:53Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > First, there doesn’t appear to be any known evidence that Al Qaida conducted the attack, and that is one of the errors of the 60 Minutes report. [Cite.](http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2013/11/13/208446/questions-about-60-minutes-benghazi.html) Why does it matter if it’s Al Qaeda? > [@Ravenman](#): > > Second, it’s clear that Republicans in Congress kept cutting the State Department security budget, so I concede that point. It takes 2 houses to produce a budget. Or did you forget that? > [@Ravenman](#): > > And finally, it’s also clear that you think any investigation that doesn’t come up with a partisan, Vince Foster-style conspiracy theory is “total bullshit.” That’s rich coming from someone who lists his location as Barackington. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2013, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/220 "2013-11-20T16:39:12Z")
> [@Acewiza](#): > > I would concede this particular ad-hoc hypothesis for disqualifying the need for a coordinated, authoritative military response to be nonsense. :rolleyes: So, results be damned, a military response was needed just, um, **because.** Even if it wouldn’t have saved a single American, but instead put more in danger, we should have done it because…? As a dick-measuring contest with Libyan militias? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466.md?page=12)