# Benghazi Attack for Dummies. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 8, 2013, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466 "2013-11-08T23:46:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2013, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/221 "2013-11-20T16:40:48Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Do you concede that such an effort would have been too late to save Stevens and Smith, and that no rapidly-deployed force could protect the CIA annex roof from an indirect-fire weapon with a range of over three miles? Do you concede the WH had no way knowing Steven and Smith would die if they launched support and that’s it’s their duty to protect them? Do you concede that well trained special ops troops could move personnel to safety instead of making them sitting ducks? Your entire decision model is that something could have gone wrong so don’t bother. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2013, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/222 "2013-11-20T16:45:41Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > So, results be damned, a military response was needed just, um, **because.** Even if it wouldn’t have saved a single American, but instead put more in danger, we should have done it because…? As a dick-measuring contest with Libyan militias? Based on your decision model you should have 911 block your phone number. Somebody might get hurt responding to your emergency. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2013, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/223 "2013-11-20T16:57:34Z")
It’s generally good form to answer questions, rather than side-stepping as you’ve done here. Bad show, sir. > [@Magiver](#): > > Do you concede the WH had no way knowing Steven and Smith would die if they launched support… Obama was briefed as to what was happening at aroun 11 pm. By then, Smith’s body had been found, and it had been discovered that Stevens was absent from the compound. Have you actually read the timeline? > [@Magiver](#): > > …and that’s it’s their duty to protect them? Yes, it is. But time and physics beats duty every single time. > [@Magiver](#): > > Do you concede that well trained special ops troops could move personnel to safety instead of making them sitting ducks? Not in this case. One man was already known to be dead, and the other gone from the compound. The CIA and DS teams that made the final search for Stevens were in armored vehicles, and unless Obama invented a teleporter, there was no way to have anyone from Europe assisting them by 11 pm. > [@Magiver](#): > > Your entire decision model is that something could have gone wrong so don’t bother. Not at all, my decision model is the one rational people use, it weighs likely gains against likely losses. Yours seems based on symbolism and ignores costs altogether. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2013, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/224 "2013-11-20T17:00:14Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Based on your decision model you should have 911 block your phone number. Somebody might get hurt responding to your emergency. Can you articulate some kind of benefit from the military intervention you’re advocating? ---
**Author:** ![Acewiza](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f475e1/32.png) [@Acewiza](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acewiza)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2013, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/225 "2013-11-20T17:05:04Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Not at all, my decision model is the one rational people use… People’s propensity to make bad declensions is not really all that uncommon or in dispute. Assigning rationality as a primary criteria is this case is remarkably disingenuous. The ability to make good decision without enough information to clearly assign rationality separates the smart people from the dumb people. Let’s just hope the people getting paid to make life and death decisions at the upper levels of our government and military do better next time. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2013, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/226 "2013-11-20T17:10:46Z")
> [@Acewiza](#): > > People’s propensity to make bad declensions is not really all that uncommon or in dispute. Assigning rationality as a primary criteria is this case is remarkably disingenuous. The ability to make good decision without enough information to clearly assign rationality separates the smart people from the dumb people. > > Let’s just hope the people getting paid to make life and death decisions at the upper levels of our government and military do better next time. Was there a need for a “coordinated, authoritative military response” in this case, or not? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2013, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/227 "2013-11-20T17:30:56Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Providing additional security should have been standard operating procedure. > > Explain why you think the attempt should not have been made. Standard operating procedure, as you have been shown, is not to send in troops when we don’t have intel about what is going on. But your ideological hate of Obama is so overwhelming, that you simply refuse to allow the possibility that the misinformation you heard about this on RW media is wrong. I suspect you don’t care about what is actually true, and simply want to stick to the fiction that you find pleasing. It’s completely out of sync with the stated goal of this message board. ---
**Author:** ![Acewiza](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f475e1/32.png) [@Acewiza](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acewiza)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2013, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/228 "2013-11-20T17:32:26Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Was there a need for a “coordinated, authoritative military response” in this case, or not? Why isn’t your handle Human "In"Action? If hindsight were money you’d be a millionaire. And OBTW, that is not what is in question here, so your ad-hoc hypothesis about the need for action or not is irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2013, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/229 "2013-11-20T17:36:28Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > It’s generally good form to answer questions, rather than side-stepping as you’ve done here. Bad show, sir. don’t even go down that road. > [@Human\_Action](#): > > Obama was briefed as to what was happening at aroun 11 pm. By then, Smith’s body had been found, and it had been discovered that Stevens was absent from the compound. And? > [@Human\_Action](#): > > Not in this case. One man was already known to be dead, and the other gone from the compound. The CIA and DS teams that made the final search for Stevens were in armored vehicles, and unless Obama invented a teleporter, there was no way to have anyone from Europe assisting them by 11 pm. you’re deliberately fronting a strawman knowing the attacks went on well past 11 pm. The same plane used for the special ops people becomes the plane evacuating Americans in Libya. There isn’t a sound reason not to launch the mission. They could easily have placed troops on the ground before the last attack. > [@Human\_Action](#): > > Not at all, my decision model is the one rational people use, it weighs likely gains against likely losses. Yours seems based on symbolism and ignores costs altogether. Rational people respond to threats all the time. There is no symbolism involved. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2013, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/230 "2013-11-20T17:40:35Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Standard operating procedure, as you have been shown, is not to send in troops when we don’t have intel about what is going on. That’s fucking retarded. We don’t let people die because of a lack of intel. And we had better intel assets in the area with drones than the terrorists. > [@Lobohan](#): > > SBut your ideological hate of Obama is so overwhelming, that you simply refuse to allow the possibility that the misinformation you heard about this on RW media is wrong. There is no misinformation that the WH did nothing. > [@Lobohan](#): > > I suspect you don’t care about what is actually true, and simply want to stick to the fiction that you find pleasing. > It’s completely out of sync with the stated goal of this message board. What is true is that the WH didn’t know the end results and chose to do nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2013, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/231 "2013-11-20T17:42:02Z")
> [@Acewiza](#): > > Why isn’t your handle Human "In"Action? If hindsight were money you’d be a millionaire. Because I wasn’t influenced by a book called Human Inaction. > [@Acewiza](#): > > And OBTW, that is not what is in question here, so your ad-hoc hypothesis about the need for action or not is irrelevant. The thread is “Benghazi Attack for Dummies”, so all questions related to the attack are relevant. Certainly **Magiver** has been adament about the need for a military intervention, and that back-and-forth has comprised the bulk of the thread. You wrote: > [@Acewiza](#): > > I would concede this particular ad-hoc hypothesis for disqualifying the need for a coordinated, authoritative military response to be nonsense. That implies that there are hypothoses that qualify or disqualify the need for a coordinated, authoritative military response in this case that are not nonsense. What might they be? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2013, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/232 "2013-11-20T17:46:28Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Can you articulate some kind of benefit from the military intervention you’re advocating? You mean besides saving the lives of people toward the end of the attack and evacuating people out of the country sooner? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2013, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/233 "2013-11-20T17:53:58Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > don’t even go down that road. Then don’t engage in that behavior. > [@Magiver](#): > > And? Therefore, nothing further could be achieved through force at the Consulate, and Obama knew that. The CIA annex was well-defended, and losses came from a mortar attack that more men on the ground could not have prevented. > [@Magiver](#): > > you’re deliberately fronting a strawman knowing the attacks went on well past 11 pm. The same plane used for the special ops people becomes the plane evacuating Americans in Libya. There isn’t a sound reason not to launch the mission. They could easily have placed troops on the ground before the last attack. Yes, there are sound reasons: there wasn’t time to organize and deploy them (that 24-hour detail you’re ignoring), they wouldn’t have done any good, they’d have been exposed to fire in a dense urban environment while trying to reach the CIA annex, the CIA annex was well-defended, and the net effect would have been more dead Americans. Which, no doubt, you’d be castigating Obama for. > [@Magiver](#): > > Rational people respond to threats all the time. There is no symbolism involved. Not if the likely loss exceeds the likely gain, they don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2013, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/234 "2013-11-20T17:58:10Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Why does it matter if it’s Al Qaeda? Does it change anything on the ground? No. Does it matter? Yes. If it didn’t matter and someone said that Jospeh Stalin was responsible for the attack, would you correct that? > [@](#): > > It takes 2 houses to produce a budget. Or did you forget that? No, I didn’t forget that. I also haven’t forgotten that you will do anything that you can imagine to blame any problem in the world on Democrats. > [@](#): > > That’s rich coming from someone who lists his location as Barackington. I think the content of one’s posts matter more than a little joke on a “location” line. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2013, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/235 "2013-11-20T18:01:52Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > You mean besides saving the lives of people toward the end of the attack and evacuating people out of the country sooner? How are Woods and Doherty saved, exactly? You seem tremendously confident both that a FAST team could get into the annex, with vehicles, fast enough to affect the evacuation time, and that they wouldn’t be bogged down in a hostile city and be in need of rescue themselves, in a replay of the Battle of Mogadishu. Why should anyone share your confidence? ---
**Author:** ![Acewiza](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f475e1/32.png) [@Acewiza](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acewiza)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2013, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/236 "2013-11-20T18:08:15Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > What might they be? There are none. Attempting to contrive them is kinda dumb. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2013, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/237 "2013-11-20T18:14:55Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > You mean besides saving the lives of people toward the end of the attack and evacuating people out of the country sooner? Later in the attack is not correct. The original attack ended within about an hour when the CIA and 60 Libyans cleared the consulate compound. The second fatal attack came at the CIA Annex where all Americans were being protected from extremist fighters but two Americans were killed by a mortar blast on the roof. No small special forces rushed in could have discovered the mortar launcher and eliminated it unless they went door to door and asking residents if they had any mortars or rocket launchers ready to fire. But Obama could have ordered a bombing run that killed every living being for a few mile perimeter around the annex but I doubt delivering that much munitions was not ready to go either. But keep posting what all your errant beliefs are Magiver. This is classic material. Don’t quit. What else can you come up with? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2013, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/238 "2013-11-20T18:36:45Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > How are Woods and Doherty saved, exactly? By being evacuated. > [@Human\_Action](#): > > You seem tremendously confident both that a FAST team could get into the annex, with vehicles, fast enough to affect the evacuation time, and that they wouldn’t be bogged down in a hostile city and be in need of rescue themselves, in a replay of the Battle of Mogadishu. Why should anyone share your confidence? You seem tremendously confident that the entire city of Benghazi was out to kill them and a traffic jam would be their undoing. As for the Battle of Mogadishu, that was an offensive maneuver designed to kill specific people. Conservatively it had a US kill ratio of 71 to 1. This was a rescue mission. There is a risk involved and those going into it know the risk just as the firemen going into the WTC knew the risk. This is what a FAST team trains to do. So yes, I think they could have saved lives if they went in. There was plenty of time to insert them at a location of their choosing and confront terrorists who don’t have a fraction of the training, equipment, intel or air support they bring to the fight. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2013, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/239 "2013-11-20T18:41:21Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > That’s fucking retarded. No, you just don’t understand the issue and are raging because you don’t want to face the facts. > [@](#): > > We don’t let people die because of a lack of intel. No, we don’t send it soldiers to die without proper intel and planning. You’ve been told this, and shown it to be fact, but you still stick with your nonsense, cartoonish beliefs. > [@](#): > > And we had better intel assets in the area with drones than the terrorists. Which, “the terrorists”? This is another example of your sloppy, thinking on the subject. Our intelligence professionals do a complex job. They provide data that is acted on. Our intel was terrible in Benghazi because it was an unexpected attack. > [@](#): > > There is no misinformation that the WH did nothing. You’re basing that on the nonsense view that they could have sent soldiers blinding stumbling into a firefight and somehow saved the day. You’re wrong. Get used to it. > [@](#): > > What is true is that the WH didn’t know the end results and chose to do nothing. Not true. The WH did the right thing, and acted on military procedure. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2013, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/240 "2013-11-20T19:00:35Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > No small special forces rushed in could have discovered the mortar launcher and eliminated … Why would they do that? It was a rescue mission. It would be nice to go after them as a secondary mission objective but the object is to get the people under attack to safety. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466.md?page=13)