# Benghazi Attack for Dummies. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 8, 2013, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466 "2013-11-08T23:46:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2013, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/461 "2013-11-24T19:24:40Z")
[QUOTE=CannyDan] “Real time surveillance” doesn’t help much when the attackers will know you’re coming long before you get close, and can move to ambush you anywhere along your route. Your drone can only be in one place at a time, but the bad guys could split up into several different ambush parties. [/QUOTE] Not to mention, drones aren’t “real time surveillance” for real. There’s a significant lag between the drone and its pilots sitting in a container three countries away, and another delay between those blokes and the people on the ground three countries away. And that’s _if_ they can establish direct communications, [or communications **at all**](http://www.cracked.com/article_20725_6-myths-about-drone-warfare-you-probably-believe.html), in the first place. > [@](#): > > Are you aware of the landscape of a city? Ever been in one? Looked up? See all that shit? Buildings, poles, wires, balconies, antennas, and all the rest? Those are death traps for parachutists. But they have night vision ! So they can, you know, \*see \*the cell tower before they impale on it :D. But not know how far it is because depth perception and NVGs don’t go well together. Does parachuting rely on depth perception in any way ? Eh, probably not. I mean come on, these are special superhuman operators who’ve done like three jumps from a tower and one from an actual airplane way back when during their one week of parachute training, how hard can it be for them ? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2013, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/462 "2013-11-24T19:32:47Z")
> [@CannyDan](#): > > And your force is going to then magically form up on the ground, after extricating themselves from rooftops, spires, utility poles and lines, and all the other crap they’ll be landing on. Their gear will presumably then magically appear at their feet, somehow also spirited away from the multitudinous traps the city has for anything falling from the sky under giant sheets of cloth. I don’t get it. You hop off the plane, there’s a cutscene and then you spawn on the ground with all your health points, surely ? ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2013, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/463 "2013-11-24T19:45:52Z")
> [@Acewiza](#): > > So now we are comparing New York to Benghazi? 9-11 to the Benhazi attack? Let’s compare my quarterbacking skills to Peyton Manning’s while we’re at it, shall we? > > An inability to recognize the fundamental distinctions and nuances of the confabulated rescue scenarios is telling in terms of the equally sophomoric disregard of the basis for the disaster in the first place. > > Some are easily distracted. Attention span issues? Acewiza this is the third time you’ve disregarded moderator instructions in this thread alone. I’m issuing you another warning for this post. As Tom said earlier, your posting privileges are now under discussion. ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2013, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/464 "2013-11-24T20:34:10Z")
Couldn’t they just have sent in Steve Austin? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2013, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/465 "2013-11-24T21:34:03Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Really? You have it on good authority they knew that all the bombs were detonated and there were no snipers? Cite? Why are you inventing silly scenarios? (More bombs and snipers are not silly, but pretending that that changes the fact that hundreds of police who knew the terrain were not already on the site certainly is.) Even if there were more bombs, they still had to close off the area and there were plenty of police already there to do it. Even if there had been snipers, they would have still had to close off the area, then respond to the snipers if any appeared–and, again, there were still lots of police who were very familiar with the terrain already in the location. If I am asked to run down to the supermarket and pick up a package of morels, I can do that in about fifteen minutes. If I am asked to go into the woods and find 8 ounces of morels, I would have to spend a lot more time and effort to get a collection basket, go tromping into the woods looking for a good site, more time finding and picking them, and then still have to walk out of the woods. You are comparing a trip to the market against a field trip to harvest wild edibles and your insistence that they amount to the same thing is ludicrous. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2013, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/466 "2013-11-24T22:45:07Z")
So, Magiver, is it your plan to keep repeating nonsense until everyone else in the thread tires of correcting you, so that you can have the last word? Is that your win strategy for this debate? Because pretty much everyone reading this thread can’t believe you’re serious. In any case: > [@Magiver](#): > > There is nothing remotely magical about an insertion. Even suggesting it needs daylight or a cleared landing zone is bizarre. I’ve already disproved the inaccurate statement about the difficulty of launching aircraft or crews quickly. It’s done all the time commercially and to suggest a fast response team from the United States military couldn’t do it is barking. There is nothing remotely difficult about it for an average crew who doesn’t train for it. Walk out on ramp, throw stuff in plane, leave. Picture the flight. Imagine it. They team grab bags, pallets, vehicles and shove them onto a transport. Picturing it? Okay, say they take off in minutes, without even having a meeting about the plan. They don’t even know how many enemies they’ll face, what weapons they’ll have, or even if the plane they’re on will be shot down by SAMs. But the team boards the plane. They somehow gas up their vehicles, load their weapons, strap on grenades and body armor in less than the time it takes to get the preflight check done. Now all experts think this is a bad idea, but we’re gonna risk all these men’s lives and ignore the experts to do it your way. Okay, three hours into the fight, the team a dressed, kitted out and ready to land in the city. Picture it. Focus on this now. They open the back of the plane, and they push the vehicles out one by one on the rollers, the parachutes deploy and the team follow quickly. Picture this. Focus on it. The unguided parachutes carrying the vehicles float down. They land randomly in an area. That area has buildings, power lines, back yards, rooftops and perhaps swimming pools. Do you think it’s a good idea to deploy an unguided parachute dropped vehicle as the means for the team to travel around the city? Also, motorcycles offer no protection from bullets. Or even thrown rocks. Also, how are you going to evacuate anyone on a a motorcycle? Why is that not a profoundly stupid idea? Okay, going on. The team land and are scattered because they are landing in a city with buildings, they perhaps aren’t in sight of one another. They have to avoid power lines on a night drop. Do you think parachuting into a city at night is a good idea, or a bad idea? I could go on, but please think about this, just because you can’t imagine what could go wrong, doesn’t mean your ideas are good. It might mean your imagination isn’t. > [@](#): > > The Boston police didn’t know what they were up against and didn’t begin to have the technical expertise or ground support that a military operation would have let alone a special operations group TRAINED for it. The difference is that Boston is a city friendly to the police, and the terrorists are few in number and almost certainly poorly armed. To suggest that operating in a city friendly to you, and dropping into a war zone where an active large scale battle is underway is desperate. > [@](#): > > Nobody suggested a case where recon and planning not be used. Just the opposite. This strawman was burned down a long time ago and you’re now flinging ashes. Strawman doesn’t mean, “Making Magiver’s arguments look really stupid.” You are suggesting that recon and planning aren’t used, because you think recon and planning are things that happen instantly in real time and are trivial. There was one drone in the area. One. Do you expect it would somehow be able to magically see all the bad guys and count them? > [@](#): > > They already knew what the mission was prior to boarding. They had a known location and number of people to extract. They knew the exact layout of the area and the buildings they were to extract them from. They had real time surveillance of the area. They had the ability to bring air support with them and to direct an explosive charge of their choosing to within inches of a target. They didn’t study the maps. They didn’t have any real-time intelligence as to the location of the attackers. They had no vehicles to do an extraction. They had no safe way to enter the city. They had nothing but your insistence that the GI Joe cartoons you watched as a youngster amount to a PhD in Military Bad-Assery. And as for air support, you can’t just launch missiles into someone else’s city. With no idea of what is happening. The civilian loss of life would be epic. > [@](#): > > you keep throwing out childish wording such as “magic” and “teleportation” and then you go on to suggest a 747 needs to slow down to 110 knots. A 747? Why would you even suggest something that stupid? You can’t parachute out of a 747. They would use the planes they train in and are available for use. It could be a C-130 or an Ospry or a handful of other aircraft designed for such missions. And there’s nothing magic about motorcycles. I gave a cite showing they were part of the inventory of special ops groups. You keep posting as if special ops teams don’t exist and they have to invent the wheel. You are suggesting magic because somehow, all the motorcycles are recoverable. See above, and picture how dropping 12 motorcycles on unguided parachutes into a city would work. This isn’t dropping them into an open desert. It is a city with buildings, roads and walled compounds. To think that they’d have their bikes in any amount of short time is nonsense. It would take hours if it was possible at all. Picture it. Really imagine it. You just landed your parachute at night in this city: [Google Maps](https://maps.google.com/maps?q=benghazi&hl=en&ll=32.112023,20.082922&spn=0.050744,0.104628&sll=32.117475,20.085754&sspn=0.050741,0.104628&t=h&hnear=Benghazi,+Banghazi,+Libya&z=14) Picture it. Work it though in your mind. You’re on foot, in a town with armed militants and you’re gonna run around peeking over fences looking for where your motorcycle landed. Actually imagine it. Does it seem sane? > [@](#): > > This isn’t WW-II with non-directional parachutes. Surely you’ve been at an air show where they land on marks on the ground using para-glide chutes they can control. This is what they’re TRAINED to do. They’re landing with night vision systems so they can see and avoid obstacles. This is old technology. In a perfect, open area, they can land close together. But when landing in a city, with power lines, buildings and light poles, it is much harder to come in. Those parachutes come in at an angle, not straight down. Picture coming in at an angle in a built up city. Picture trying to navigate different height buildings, missing power lines, missing water towers as you swoop in at an angle under 45°. Actually imagine it, instead of just rattling off stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2013, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/467 "2013-11-24T22:58:23Z")
[QUOTE=Lobohan] You are suggesting magic because somehow, all the motorcycles are recoverable. See above, and picture how dropping 12 motorcycles on unguided parachutes into a city would work. This isn’t dropping them into an open desert. It is a city with buildings, roads and walled compounds. [/QUOTE] Oh, fine. So they parachute a few miles from the city instead, big deal. Since the distance is greater, instead of bikes we’ll just fill a glider with jeeps and land it on the same DZ so they’ll get them instantly and be ready to roll in minutes. They’ll need good coms with the drone crew and of course the Consulate itself, but their equipment is top notch ! Besides, it’s not like they’re going to face crack troops, it’s just unwashed militias down there. And then… excuse me for a second, [I’m having the weirdest déjà vu](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Bridge_Too_Far_%28film%29) :). ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2013, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/468 "2013-11-24T23:32:54Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > what’s dramatic about an air drop? Plane flies over, door opens and out they go. The gear comes form the same place they station at. This is what they train for. I’m go to ask you to ground your scenarios in specifics. 1. Where are these troops coming from? Who are they? 2. How are they going to extract about 30 people? > [@Magiver](#): > > The police responding to the Boston bombing had no idea what they were walking into. It didn’t take 6 hours to head toward the attack. They didn’t hide in a closet for 6 hours planning for contingencies. The contingencies are what are planned for in advance. Their training by default involves working through various contingencies. They have a playbook to work with because of this process. This isn’t happening the next block over to them. It’s a multi hour flight. There is your planning time. Gates pulled a generic number out of his ass without substantiating it. The situation was pretty straight forward. Nobody was kidnapped and spirited away requiring advanced intel. We knew where they were and where the assaults came from. They needed to land nearby and support the people on the ground militarily long enough to extract them. Already well-covered; Boston and Benghazi are apples and oranges. > [@Magiver](#): > > You haven’t substantiated what they needed 6 hours for. All you’ve done is parrot a generic statement made without support. Well, even the mysterious Fox News anonymous “whistleblower” [said that](http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/04/30/special-ops-benghazi-whistleblower-tells-fox-news-government-could-have/): > [@](#): > > “We had the ability to load out, get on birds and fly there, at a minimum stage,” the operator told Fox News. “C-110 had the ability to be there, in my opinion, in a matter of about four hours…four to six hours.” Now, this fellow is [contradicted by many people](http://mediamatters.org/blog/2013/04/29/fox-uses-unnamed-source-to-revive-discredited-m/193829), but even he says it was a matter of 4 to 6 house to get the team that was training in Croatia to Benghazi, and he only said they’d be able to “facilitate” an exfiltration, declining to get into specifics. Please explain how your scenario gets around this. > [@Magiver](#): > > Does this mean they would be successful? Unknown. Could the situation change while they’re en-route? Yes. Could they suffer massive losses parachuting into a city at night and trying to fight their way to the CIA annex? Yes. Could they somehow extract 30 people? Perhaps you can explain that. > [@Magiver](#): > > Was it possible to deal with it if they didn’t launch. No. The attempt was not made. It was “dealt with”. The forces already at the annex fought off the attempt to storm it. The attempt at getting more troops into place was made, and successfully (they came from Tripoli, remember?). ---
**Author:** ![Acewiza](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f475e1/32.png) [@Acewiza](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acewiza)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2013, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/469 "2013-11-24T23:47:11Z")
Too bad warnings about the security of her staff in a country just recovering from a civil war went unheeded at Hillary’s State Department. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2013, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/470 "2013-11-24T23:52:10Z")
> [@Acewiza](#): > > Too bad warnings about the security of her staff in a country just recovering from a civil war went unheeded at Hillary’s State Department. Yes, that is too bad. The same thing happened under Bush, and Clinton, and Reagan, and Carter. Is this incident uniquely bad, or do those not count for some reason, or what? ---
**Author:** ![Acewiza](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f475e1/32.png) [@Acewiza](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acewiza)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2013, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/471 "2013-11-24T23:59:05Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Yes, that is too bad. The same thing happened under Bush, and Clinton, and Reagan, and Carter. Is this incident uniquely bad, or do those not count for some reason, or what? Please explain how these things you speak of are similar to the Benghazi attack. Cite the explicitly communicated security warnings just prior to a terrorist attack that would make your statement valid or true. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2013, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/472 "2013-11-25T00:07:01Z")
> [@Acewiza](#): > > Please explain how these things you speak of are similar to the Benghazi attack. Cite the explicitly communicated security warnings just prior to a terrorist attack that would make your statement valid or true. Already did: post #339. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2013, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/473 "2013-11-25T00:28:44Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Really? You have it on good authority they knew that all the bombs were detonated and there were no snipers? Cite? Do you have it on any authority at all that the Libyan terrorists didn’t have anti-aircraft missiles? Your magical airdrop would turn into a magic fireball. ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2013, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/474 "2013-11-25T00:31:46Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > … excuse me for a second, [I’m having the weirdest déjà vu](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Bridge_Too_Far_%28film%29) :). You don’t think **Magiver** is the reincarnation of Montgomery, do you? 😃 > [@Acewiza](#): > > Too bad warnings about the security of her staff in a country just recovering from a civil war went unheeded at Hillary’s State Department. > [@Acewiza](#): > > Please explain how these things you speak of are similar to the Benghazi attack. Cite the explicitly communicated security warnings just prior to a terrorist attack that would make your statement valid or true. Read the thread. Any more explicit description of unrelated historic events would be, IMHO, a hijack. You ask a lot of questions, but don’t pay any attention to the answers given. You keep making cryptic assertions that you fail to substantiate with either cogent argument or cites. I’m bored with you. When come back, note the name of this forum, and bring some. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2013, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/475 "2013-11-25T00:31:58Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Already did: post #339. HAH ! You’re dished, old boy. I’ll refer you to your own post : > [@](#): > > The U.S. [received a detailed warning of a plot to bomb Kenyan embassies](http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1998-10-23/news/1998296033_1_kenya-ahmed-embassy), **months in advance** of the attacks. That’s not just prior ! Gotcha ya ! Joke aside, there’s also the large-ish pachyderm in the room, namely the Bush admin filing Bin Laden related memoes in the circular cabinet [during the run up to 9/11](http://digitaljournal.com/article/332613). ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2013, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/476 "2013-11-25T00:39:42Z")
[QUOTE=CannyDan] You don’t think **Magiver** is the reincarnation of Montgomery, do you? 😃 [/QUOTE] I’m saying nobody’s ever seen the two of them in a room together. Possible sock reported. ---
**Author:** ![Acewiza](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f475e1/32.png) [@Acewiza](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acewiza)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2013, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/477 "2013-11-25T01:26:23Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > HAH ! You’re dished, old boy. I’ll refer you to your own post > > That’s not just prior ! Gotcha ya ! > . What you’ve got is further proof the State Department has demonstrated a pattern of negligence WRT security of its facilities - the basis of my premise for Benghazi for dummies. Thanks for the support! ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2013, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/478 "2013-11-25T01:56:47Z")
Well, on top of your fact finding apparatus, I regret to inform you your sarcasm meter is on the fritz. Have you tried turning it off, then back on again ? ---
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2013, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/479 "2013-11-25T03:55:56Z")
> [@dasmoocher](#): > > Couldn’t they just have sent in Steve Austin? Because if one side sends in Steve Austin, then the other side will send in the Rock, then the first side sends in the Undertaker, and so on and so forth and pretty soon we have a battle royal on our hands. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2013, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/480 "2013-11-25T03:58:23Z")
> [@Acewiza](#): > > Too bad warnings about the security of her staff in a country just recovering from a civil war went unheeded at Hillary’s State Department. Do you have specific warnings that bring you to make such a comment? Could we see what warnings you are claiming exist? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466.md?page=23) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466.md?page=25)