# Benghazi Attack for Dummies. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 8, 2013, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466 "2013-11-08T23:46:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 29
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2013, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/561 "2013-11-27T17:24:06Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I’ve shown that from a technical standpoint it’s not a particularly difficult mission. Getting a plane airborne quickly is not miracle. Precision drops of equipment is not a miracle. Plotting a location and avoiding obstacles is not magic. Monitoring the situation in real time is not a problem. They had a drone in the area the whole time and any team entering the area would have brought their own sets of drones with them for additional coverage. > > That you are unaware of aviation and find it magical is not my problem. You’re literally arguing that UPS or Fed Ex can’t do what they do on a daily basis. You’re arguing the military can’t handle a night landing when all the wars we’ve seen in the last 30 years have been launched at night. This is what they do best. Translation: I’ve worked at an airport and I read things about FedEx, therefore military operations are the same. And for someone who is asking for a lot of cites, you haven’t provided any on these points. It’s just more unsubstantiated nonsense: I’ve seen [easy thing] done, therefore [hard thing] is easy. > [@](#): > > Why don’t you supply a cite for anything related to them. Again, and again and again I’ve pointed out this information has not been forthcoming. > > What you seem to lack is the capacity to understand is that the WH might have made the correct decision but in the absence of their cooperation it appears they did not. Seriouly, just go back and read the last six pages of this thread. There are ample cites on those pages and you’ve ignored them. Why are you going to pay attention to new cites? You keep talking about “stand down” orders and saying there isn’t transparency, but I quoted a press release from the Republican-controlled House Armed Services Committee which states there was no stand down order. That has been quoted more than once over the last several pages, and you have ignored it each time it was posted. In fact, I called you out at least once on ignoring that cite, and you ignored that, too. One can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him drink. We’ve led to you the water many times already, but you insist on pretending you’re in a desert. There’s no way we can help you if you don’t read what’s been posted. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2013, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/562 "2013-11-27T17:34:50Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Why do you assume the WH was correct in their decision when it has not been forthcoming. You got nothing. ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2013, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/563 "2013-11-27T20:32:49Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > You got nothing. A fair summary of this thread. I’ve about reached the same point as **jayjay**. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2013, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/564 "2013-11-28T04:47:13Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > You got nothing. Actually, you have nothing. I asked for a cite. You currently can’t provide one. It’s a simple process for the WH to provide this information and it’s been asked for by Congress. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2013, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/565 "2013-11-28T05:25:29Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Actually, you have nothing. I asked for a cite. You currently can’t provide one. It’s a simple process for the WH to provide this information and it’s been asked for by Congress. Cite that what you’re asking for hasn’t been provided; either in this thread or by the White House. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2013, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/566 "2013-11-28T05:37:41Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Cite that what you’re asking for hasn’t been provided; either in this thread or by the White House. that’s not possible. I asked for a cite. If it doesn’t exist then it doesn’t exist. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2013, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/567 "2013-11-28T05:48:30Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Actually, you have nothing. I asked for a cite. You currently can’t provide one. It’s a simple process for the WH to provide this information and it’s been asked for by Congress. A cite for what? That a special forces team in Europe was not used? There are any number of potential assets that were also not used; do you want explanations for why each of them was not used, too? ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2013, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/568 "2013-11-28T05:49:22Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > that’s not possible. I asked for a cite. If it doesn’t exist then it doesn’t exist. cite that you’re not an axe murderer? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2013, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/569 "2013-11-28T06:15:11Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > A cite for what? That a special forces team in Europe was not used? There are any number of potential assets that were also not used; do you want explanations for why each of them was not used, too? No, just the team mentioned. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2013, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/570 "2013-11-28T06:37:17Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > No, just the team mentioned. Where’s your preferred assumption leaning, toward someone in charge figuring that team wouldn’t be of much help, or someone in charge saying “fuck the diplomatic staff, let them all die screaming” ? ---
**Author:** ![Algorithm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/algorithm/32/12204_2.png) [@Algorithm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algorithm)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2013, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/571 "2013-11-28T07:39:00Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Actually, you have nothing. I asked for a cite. You currently can’t provide one. It’s a simple process for the WH to provide this information and it’s been asked for by Congress. Say, what do you think is the most likely location of Barack Obama’s birth? ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2013, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/572 "2013-11-28T14:00:29Z")
Ut! Careful with the derail there. Stay focused. No warning issued. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2013, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/573 "2013-11-28T16:52:47Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > There is nothing remotely fanciful about anything I’ve suggested. I’ve pointed out the technology that’s been available for it’s use is old technology. All I’ve gotten is stupid replies about how hard it is to launch an airplane or parachute freight or operate in the dark. All the power lines and obstructions are mapped out in extreme detail and can be viewed by the troops with night vision. Imagine actually giving it 5 minutes of planning to select landing zones that take everything you said into consideration. This is not even a minor problem to overcome. They would be as vulnerable to attack as the group who responded on the ground from Tripoli. The difference is that I suggested air support which they could have used to direct inbound strikes of any size. Again, this is old technology. > > All this is in direct defiance of what has been posted regarding the activation of the group I’ve suggested. Look at post 523: • 12:30 a.m. The first U.S. military unit is ordered to begin moving to Libya. By 3 a.m., two teams of special operations forces — one from Fort Bragg, N.C., and one from central Europe — and a Marine anti-terrorism unit are preparing to depart. > > It’s a simple request. Cite who shut down the European team and why. Activating them was the right thing to do. Allowing them to proceed toward Benghazi created a useable option. When did this happen and who made the decision. > > You can’t say when this happened because that information has never been forthcoming. Mr transparency COULD have made been a good decision but so far has chosen not to share it. It would have been better rather than to map out every power lines surrounding the CIA Annex to have stationed a half dozen MRAPs on location that could evacuate all staff when an attack unfolds as it did. It was a CIA site for God’s sake. Why didnt they plan an escape route or mortar defense where they were working and living? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2013, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/574 "2013-11-28T17:30:52Z")
> [@](#): > > The “ **basic principle is that you don’t deploy forces into harm’s way without knowing what’s going on** ; without having some real-time information about what’s taking place,” [Panetta] said during a joint question-and-answer session with Chairman of the Joint Chief of Staff General Martin Dempsey. > > “ **As a result of not having that kind of information, the commander who was on the ground in that area, General Ham, General Dempsey and I felt very strongly that we could not put forces at risk in that situation,** ” Panetta said. vs. > [@](#): > > I’ve explained to you that I’ve been in the logistics business all my life. We have a lot of ex-military people in this field. Damn if we don’t talk shop from time to time. We naturally send each other cool videos related to our jobs. I leave it to the reader to decide. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2013, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/575 "2013-11-28T18:51:32Z")
FTR, I’m as of now expecting just as much **Magiver Monday Morning Quarterbacking** ™ ® © any and every time a couple US soldiers catch a mortar to the face in the course of their regular duties. Effective immediately, without parole. And am of course shocked, SHOCKED I say, that there didn’t seem to be so much noise coming from him over previous similar incidents, or previous dead mortared G.I.s for that matter. I am of course open to a cite from him proving the contrary, but not holding my breath because purplish blue doesn’t suit my complexion. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2013, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/576 "2013-11-28T18:51:37Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Where’s your preferred assumption leaning, toward someone in charge figuring that team wouldn’t be of much help, or someone in charge saying “fuck the diplomatic staff, let them all die screaming” ? So I have to pick from your choices because you didn’t read through the thread? They should have launched any asset available as contingencies toward the unknown. It’s not a function of having a solution when it’s launched. It’s a function of having a solution available when needed. In my business dealings I’ve contracted multiple carriers for the same run because the cost of failure was a lost contract. Customers don’t care why you failed. It’s not something that happened very often but that’s the nature of getting things done. In this case there were lives at stake and nobody could have known how the situation was going to unfold. They couldn’t. They would only know that in order to have a solution available the assets would have to be there when needed. In this case the time en-route and the intel available gave them something to work with. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2013, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/577 "2013-11-28T18:58:45Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > vs.The “basic principle is that you don’t deploy forces into harm’s way without knowing what’s going on; without having some real-time information about what’s taking place,” [Panetta] said during a joint question-and-answer session with Chairman of the Joint Chief of Staff General Martin Dempsey. > > “As a result of not having that kind of information, the commander who was on the ground in that area, General Ham, General Dempsey and I felt very strongly that we could not put forces at risk in that situation,” Panetta said. And I’ve never suggested people be sent into harms way without knowing what’s going on. They had a considerable amount of time en-route to work out a solution. They had the whole Pentagon, CIA, NSA, to tap into for information and solutions and they had people and drones onsite to provide real time intel. This was a goldmine of assets to work with. How is what I suggested different from the group eventually sent? What changed in their level of safety? They could have mortared everybody and everything with additional terrorists joining the fray. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2013, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/578 "2013-11-28T19:07:29Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > And I’ve never suggested people be sent into harms way without knowing what’s going on. They had a considerable amount of time en-route to work out a solution. When people say “knowing what’s going on”, they don’t mean “wondering out loud what they might face Out There”. What the fuck are they supposed to do on the plane to improve their local intel ?! > [@](#): > > They had the whole Pentagon, CIA, NSA, to tap into for information and solutions and they had people and drones onsite to provide real time intel. Again : one drone. One. 1. Uno. Eins. Ichi. To cover the whole city. Not that drones are the best way to gain intel, but still, that key point seems to elude you again, and again, and again. So, once more with feeling : a drone. They had A drone. And the Pentagon, CIA, NSA are not Divination-specced wizards, either. If they don’t know, they don’t fucking know. Particularly since, to much grousing on the part of people who have to \*work \*based on their shitty intel, the CIA, NSA et al. have let the HUMINT side of things go to the dogs over the past two decades because they’ve started believing their own bullshit regarding the amazing awesome capabilities of high tech gizmos. And as a result their intel kinda sucks now that they barely have people on the ground, with fingers on various pulses, any more. The new way is cheaper, way less risky, and sucks. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2013, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/579 "2013-11-28T19:21:46Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > So I have to pick from your choices because you didn’t read through the thread? They should have launched any asset available as contingencies toward the unknown. It’s not a function of having a solution when it’s launched. It’s a function of having a solution available when needed. You’ll be pleased to learn, then, that a team flew from Tripoli to Benghazi, and tried to locate Stevens before reinforcing the annex. A FAST platoon flew from Spain to Libya. Another team flew from Fort Bragg to Sicily, a nearby staging point. Are you professing that the C-110 team, which was training, was available? If so, please present evidence. Note that a lack of evidence to the contrary isn’t evidence, that actually is a fallacy. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2013, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/580 "2013-11-28T19:38:31Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > When people say “knowing what’s going on”, they don’t mean “wondering out loud what they might face Out There”. What the fuck are they supposed to do on the plane to improve their local intel ?! What they’re suppose to do is what they’re trained to do. Communicate with ground assets over the best routes to take and alternate courses of action. Just as if they were sitting in a room. Again, it’s not WW-II. It’s old technology to teleconference between 2 or more locations. > [@Kobal2](#): > > Again : one drone. One. 1. Uno. Eins. Ichi. To cover the whole city. Not that drones are the best way to gain intel, but still, that key point seems to elude you again, and again, and again. So, once more with feeling : a drone. They had A drone. It doesn’t have to cover the whole city. [But it could.](http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2013/02/06/argus_is_could_the_pentagon_s_1_8_gigapixel_drone_camera_be_used_for_domestic.html). It’s actually getting a little scary how little you know about what’s been going on the last couple of decades. While they could track every single person and vehicle in Benghazi I don’t see a practical need to do so. they need to cover the areas they wish to operate in. > [@Kobal2](#): > > the Pentagon, CIA, NSA are not Divination-specced wizards, either. If they don’t know, they don’t fucking know. Don’t know what exactly? The people to be rescued? Their exact location? The layout of the city? The number of people involved in the attack? Communications within this area? this wasn’t a mission to track and kill a terrorist who could be hiding anywhere on the planet. It was a rescue mission. They know the who, what, where and when of the situation. The “how” is the planning stage. You keep throwing up archaic roadblocks as if it was 50 years ago. By your logic we could have sent help when it was eventually sent because: the Pentagon, CIA, NSA are not Divination-specced wizards, either. If they don’t know, they don’t fucking know. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466.md?page=28) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466.md?page=30)