# Benghazi Attack for Dummies. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 8, 2013, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466 "2013-11-08T23:46:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 30
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2013, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/581 "2013-11-28T19:48:00Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > What they’re suppose to do is what they’re trained to do. Communicate with **ground assets** over the best routes to take and alternate courses of action. Just as if they were sitting in a room. Again, it’s not WW-II. It’s old technology to teleconference between 2 or more locations. Cool ! So, that’s who ? > [@](#): > > It doesn’t have to cover the whole city. [But it could.](http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2013/02/06/argus_is_could_the_pentagon_s_1_8_gigapixel_drone_camera_be_used_for_domestic.html). It’s actually getting a little scary how little you know about what’s been going on the last couple of decades. While they could track every single person and vehicle in Benghazi I don’t see a practical need to do so. they need to cover the areas they wish to operate in. Read up on signal/noise ratio. How many persons or vehicles are there in Benghazi, even if it’s “just those areas” that include eleventy blocks ? How many of them were terrorists and/or sympathizers and/or informants ? Bonus question : can a drone tell the difference ? > [@](#): > > Don’t know what exactly? The people to be rescued? Their exact location? The layout of the city? The number of people involved in the attack? Communications within this area? > > this wasn’t a mission to track and kill a terrorist who could be hiding anywhere on the planet. It was a rescue mission. They know the who, what, where and when of the situation. The “how” is the planning stage. They don’t know how many people in the city are hostile. They don’t know where they are. They don’t know where they have support, if they have support, what kind of support they might have. They don’t know how much of an arsenal they squirreled away during the civil war - AKs & RPGs only ? Mortars ? MANPADS ? Flak guns ? APCs ? Technicals ? How many, and where ? IEDs : any already set up ? That shit is sort of important to know. > [@](#): > > You keep throwing up archaic roadblocks as if it was 50 years ago. By your logic we could have sent help when it was eventually sent because: the Pentagon, CIA, NSA are not Divination-specced wizards, either. If they don’t know, they don’t fucking know. When you don’t fucking know, you send out troops in force, carefully and with full support. You don’t half-ass it, you don’t rush it and you don’t improvise. Especially when there’s no immediate need to (remember : the initial attack lasted a whole 30 minutes. The people in the embassy were still under threat, but no \*immediate \*threat). ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2013, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/582 "2013-11-28T19:52:58Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Are you professing that the C-110 team, which was training, was available? If so, please present evidence. Note that a lack of evidence to the contrary isn’t evidence, that actually is a fallacy. I’m professing that the information has not been forthcoming from the WH. What is so hard to understand about that? You’re arguing it WAS done right and I’m arguing the WH won’t divulge what took place and it might not have been done right. Is the President of the United States accountable for his actions or not? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2013, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/583 "2013-11-28T19:54:34Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Cool ! So, that’s who ? > > Read up on signal/noise ratio. How many persons or vehicles are there in Benghazi, even if it’s “just those areas” that include eleventy blocks ? How many of them were terrorists and/or sympathizers and/or informants ? Bonus question : can a drone tell the difference ? > > They don’t know how many people in the city are hostile. They don’t know where they are. They don’t know where they have support, if they have support, what kind of support they might have. They don’t know how much of an arsenal they squirreled away during the civil war - AKs & RPGs only ? Mortars ? MANPADS ? Flak guns ? APCs ? Technicals ? How many, and where ? IEDs : any already set up ? > > That shit is sort of important to know. > > When you don’t fucking know, you send out troops in force, carefully and with full support. You don’t half-ass it, you don’t rush it and you don’t improvise. Especially when there’s no immediate need to (remember : the initial attack lasted a whole 30 minutes. The people in the embassy were still under threat, but no \*immediate \*threat). they didn’t know any more when they sent in people 8 hrs later. All your what if’s apply. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2013, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/584 "2013-11-28T19:55:13Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > They should have launched any asset available as contingencies toward the unknown. …this is an incredibly inefficient and wasteful strategy: typical of the private sector and its want for profit. This strategy, as shown by the cites above, would not have saved any lives. It wouldn’t have gotten anyone home faster. It wouldn’t have stopped the mortar attack. The only result would have been the potential for more US casualties. > [@](#): > > In my business dealings I’ve contracted multiple carriers for the same run because the cost of failure was a lost contract. Customers don’t care why you failed. It’s not something that happened very often but that’s the nature of getting things done. And in the real world your business dealings count for nothing. You aren’t the only person in this thread who has had to deal with logistics, managing contracts, managing customers, and dealing with life and death situations. You are no more an expert on what happened here than anyone else in this thread. You are not an authority. You need to stop citing yourself and start citing other people. > [@](#): > > In this case there were lives at stake and nobody could have known how the situation was going to unfold. They couldn’t. They would only know that in order to have a solution available the assets would have to be there when needed. In this case the time en-route and the intel available gave them something to work with. The thing is, if all the resources you wanted to be put into Benghazi were thrown at Benghazi, the absolute best result would have been virtually identical to what actually happened. At worst: more Americans would have died. This really looks like outrage for the sake of outrage. I really don’t get it. There is plenty of things you could legitimately find to criticize in the lead up to the attacks. I didn’t know much about Benghazi at all before reading this thread. After reading this thread: it looks like the Americans on the ground acted heroically and that the best decisions to save American lives were made by those with the power to do so. Nothing you have said convinces me that a different approach would have had either had better outcomes or saved lives. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2013, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/585 "2013-11-28T19:55:45Z")
(Oh, and BTW, it’s “actually getting a little scary” how much faith you have in the information processing power of a handful of dudes sitting in a RO-RO container somewhere. That’s drone warfare for you, in the Real World) ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2013, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/586 "2013-11-28T19:57:15Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > they didn’t know any more when they sent in people 8 hrs later. All your what if’s apply. Which is why they came in in an armoured convoy, supported by the Lybian military, and only two people got killed in an unpreventable spite mortar attack. All my what if’s : vindicated. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2013, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/587 "2013-11-28T19:59:54Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …this is an incredibly inefficient and wasteful strategy: typical of the private sector and its want for profit. This strategy, as shown by the cites above, would not have saved any lives. It wouldn’t have gotten anyone home faster. It wouldn’t have stopped the mortar attack. The only result would have been the potential for more US casualties. First, there is no inefficency in saving someone’s life. We launch helicopters all day long in my city at the hint of bad auto accident. Secondly, the mortar attack was just a real danger for the group who arrived 8 hrs later so your argument is false on that account. And what makes a mortar attack fatal is time. Discounting a lucky shot they require dialing in using a spotter. The longer people remain in one location the greater the likelihood they will be hit. If they had been extracted they would cease to be targets for mortars. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2013, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/588 "2013-11-28T20:20:22Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > First, there is no inefficency in saving someone’s life. …but your approach wouldn’t have saved any lives: hence it would have been inefficient. > [@](#): > > We launch helicopters all day long in my city at the hint of bad auto accident. Your government launches helicopters all day long in your city at the hint of a bad auto accident? That doesn’t happen here. This sounds wasteful and ineffiicent. You should lobby to get it stopped. > [@](#): > > Secondly, the mortar attack was just a real danger for the group who arrived 8 hrs later so your argument is false on that account. Which argument did I make that is false? Please be specific. > [@](#): > > And what makes a mortar attack fatal is time. Incorrect. What makes a mortar attack fatal is getting hit by a mortar round. > [@](#): > > Discounting a lucky shot they require dialing in using a spotter. The longer people remain in one location the greater the likelihood they will be hit. If they had been extracted they would cease to be targets for mortars. It now appears you are just stringing together random words and hoping they make a sentence. What you have said bear no relation to anything I said. Nothing you have said convinces me that taking your approach would have had either a better outcome or saved more lives. What part of your response to me is supposed to convince me that your approach would have saved more lives? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2013, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/589 "2013-11-28T21:07:01Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I’m professing that the information has not been forthcoming from the WH. What is so hard to understand about that? You’re arguing it WAS done right and I’m arguing the WH won’t divulge what took place and it might not have been done right. It’s hard to understand because that’s plainly **not** what you’ve been doing. You’re not just complaining about a lack of information, you are making specific claims and accusations, e.g.: > [@Magiver](#): > > Sufficient to insert a specialized unit trained to deal with such events? > > I would have to say yes. They can insert anywhere they choose with the advantage of knowing where the attackers are. They can bring whatever equipment they choose with them. They can call in pinpoint airstrikes. > [@Magiver](#): > > Grenading what crowd? This wasn’t a protest with a few agitators mixed. It was a direct assault on American interests by a group of terrorists. It was left undefended by choice. Somebody made that deliberate choice. > [@Magiver](#): > > The situation needed trained people on the ground to deal with it. This did not happen. Nothing happened. They were left there to die. > [@Magiver](#): > > Someone told them to stand down. > [@Magiver](#): > > People died defending US interests and it involved an extended period of time sufficient to re-secure the facilities. …and on and on. Either there’s not enough information to judge the decision-making process, and _that’s_ the problem, or there is enough information, but the wrong decision was made. You can’t have it both ways: state what _should_ have been done (to a comical level of detail, at that), and deflect criticism of your plans on the grounds that not enough information is available. > [@Magiver](#): > > Is the President of the United States accountable for his actions or not? Of course. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2013, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/590 "2013-11-29T03:57:34Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Secondly, the mortar attack was just a real danger for the group who arrived 8 hrs later… The first part of your first sentence as a basic part of your argument is false. One of the two killed had been at the Annex the entire time. You need to rewrite your point to reflect what actually happened. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2013, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/591 "2013-11-29T04:25:31Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > . > > Your government launches helicopters all day long in your city at the hint of a bad auto accident? That doesn’t happen here. This sounds wasteful and ineffiicent. You should lobby to get it stopped. We’re not interested in letting people die efficiently. If it looks like a bad accident where minutes count then everything possible is done to save the person. Best of luck if you get in an accident. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2013, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/592 "2013-11-29T04:26:43Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > The first part of your first sentence as a basic part of your argument is false. One of the two killed had been at the Annex the entire time. You need to rewrite your point to reflect what actually happened. And the terrorist’s union forbade them from firing on other locations? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2013, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/593 "2013-11-29T06:02:17Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > We’re not interested in letting people die efficiently. If it looks like a bad accident where minutes count then everything possible is done to save the person. Best of luck if you get in an accident. …where I live we have socialized medicine. If I get into an accident or if were to fall ill, not only am I likely to survive if it is survivable, I also wouldn’t end up bankrupt. If you want to live more efficiently, then adopt socialized medicine. You claim that “We launch helicopters all day long in my city at the **hint** of bad auto accident.” This is an extraordinary waste of resources. I can’t imagine any emergency service relying on “hints” before sending into the air expensive resources. Do you have a hint line set up, where people can call up and leave hints that there might be a bad auto accident? “PSSST! There might be a bad auto accident in an hour, better send up the helicopters!” Do you have pre-cogs there as well? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2013, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/594 "2013-11-29T07:49:44Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Why do you assume you understand the situation better than the then-Secretary of Defense, a former Secretary of Defense, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, two four-star combatant commanders, the commander of the four-person Special Forces team based in Tripoli, and an independent review board that included the services of a former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff? I’d like to see an answer to this. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2013, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/595 "2013-11-29T07:54:18Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I’d like to see an answer to this. He’s told you : he’s spoken with people who’ve been in the military at some point. Once, in 1960, for about 20 minutes. If that doesn’t make him a qualified expert on everything, I’d like to know what does. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2013, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/596 "2013-11-29T08:21:47Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > He’s told you : he’s spoken with people who’ve been in the military at some point. Once, in 1960, for about 20 minutes. If that doesn’t make him a qualified expert on everything, I’d like to know what does. How long has it been since he stayed at a Holiday Inn? ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2013, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/597 "2013-11-29T08:41:05Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Why do you assume you understand the situation better than the then-Secretary of Defense, a former Secretary of Defense, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, two four-star combatant commanders, the commander of the four-person Special Forces team based in Tripoli, and an independent review board that included the services of a former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff? > > Let me guess why: you used to work at an airport. I thought it was because he believes they’ve all lying because they’ve been intimidated by the Obama administration. ---
**Author:** ![not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_what_you_d_expect/32/3246_2.png) [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_what_you_d_expect)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2013, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/598 "2013-11-29T10:49:05Z")
The answer is Rambo. Duh. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2013, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/599 "2013-11-29T11:10:39Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > In my business dealings I’ve contracted multiple carriers for the same run because the cost of failure was a lost contract. Customers don’t care why you failed. It’s not something that happened very often but that’s the nature of getting things done. So if this redundancy might lead to losing far more contracts, would you go ahead with it? That’s the thing your analogy is missing here. The purpose was to save lives, so sending people in essentially blind to hostile territory is _probably a bad idea_. That might be why they waited. Oh wait, I don’t have to offer blind, pointless conjecture, that’s _exactly what the head honchos in the military said their reasoning was_. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2013, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/600 "2013-11-29T14:36:24Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > And the terrorist’s union forbade them from firing on other locations? Who knows and who cares about the militant extremists firing mortars at other locations than the CIA Annex. Your latest sarcastic point here again makes no sense. Perhaps you can explain it better. Take it past sarcasm if there is a valid point to be made. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466.md?page=29) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466.md?page=31)