# Benghazi Attack for Dummies. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 8, 2013, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466 "2013-11-08T23:46:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 35
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/681 "2013-12-03T04:43:22Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Been provided. No, it hasn’t. Only their opinion has been provided. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/682 "2013-12-03T04:54:48Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Based on my earlier cite, Congress made up its mind in April 2013 that there was no way to rush military aid into Benghazi any faster. It’s been seven months since that issue was settled; why are you saying that Congress doesn’t have the information to make a judgment on this issue? The Congressional investigation is still on-going. > [@Ravenman](#): > > In light of this, I would like to rephrase a question I asked you earlier: > > Why do you assume you understand the situation better than the then-Secretary of Defense, a former Secretary of Defense, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, two four-star combatant commanders, the commander of the four-person Special Forces team based in Tripoli, an independent review board that included the services of a former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, \*and the Republican chairmen of the House Armed Services Committee, House Government Reform Committee, House Intelligence Committee, and the House Foreign Affairs Committee? \* I don’t assume anything without background information. Why do you? I question the validity of claims made when they are not substantiated. > [@Ravenman](#): > > That is literally centuries worth of experience in the military, government, diplomacy, and related fields, and they all think that your thrown-together rescue scenario could not have been accomplished. Seriously, just think about the expertise of the individuals on that list, and their political affiliations (or lack thereof). All of them are saying you’re wrong. For what reason do you doubt their collective judgment? Not one of them has provided any evidence that justifies their opinion. That’s all that’s been asked of them. Assuming they are right you should agree that the information they based their opinion’s on would be made available for all to see so that we can share in their centuries worth of great wisdom. I don’t see the great angst in providing this information. Do you? Are people who represent us not accountable for their actions? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 8:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/683 "2013-12-03T08:44:01Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The Congressional investigation is still on-going. > > I don’t assume anything without background information. Why do you? I question the validity of claims made when they are not substantiated. > > Not one of them has provided any evidence that justifies their opinion. That’s all that’s been asked of them. Assuming they are right you should agree that the information they based their opinion’s on would be made available for all to see so that we can share in their centuries worth of great wisdom. > > I don’t see the great angst in providing this information. Do you? Are people who represent us not accountable for their actions? Why is Boehner not pursuing all this missing information with all the tools available to his opposition party as he pledged in September that he would do? Is he holding off until 2015 to see if damage can be done to the Dem nominee? If that is the case your complaints should be addressed to the Speaker not the President. At this point the WH has apparently given all that Boehner has requested them to give. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/684 "2013-12-03T08:50:41Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Hey, good news - _those assets you speak of were launched_. A FAST platoon was readied and sent to Tripoli, a team from Ft. Bragg was readied and sent to Sicily, and a team from Tripoli was sent to Benghazi. Please acknowledge that you are aware of this. > > As the House report **Ravenman** just cited makes clear, the problem was the positioning of forces, not their lack of deployment. More good news is that Magiver has responded to others but not to your request. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/685 "2013-12-03T12:28:16Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The Congressional investigation is still on-going. Not on this issue it isn’t. I’ve already cited that House Republicans have reached a conclusion on this rescue mission nonsense. > [@](#): > > I don’t assume anything without background information. Why do you? I question the validity of claims made when they are not substantiated. Did you read the interview with Admiral Mullen? Have you seen the news stories about General Dempsey? The explanations they provide make sense. > [@](#): > > Not one of them has provided any evidence that justifies their opinion. That’s all that’s been asked of them. By you. The committees doing the investigating reached a conclusion on this issue seven months ago. > [@](#): > > I don’t see the great angst in providing this information. Do you? Are people who represent us not accountable for their actions? Your standard of proof is very interesting. On one hand, we have the settled issue that there were no military assets in place to rush to Benghazi, as evidenced by the congressional investigation, an independent panel, and several military leaders. On the other hand, in the other thread you’ve proposed to bomb Iran because you are alone in claiming that they are in the “breakout” scenario, for which there is no evidence to support that view. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/686 "2013-12-03T12:47:41Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > No, it hasn’t. Only their opinion has been provided. Their testimony, which is the best evidence of what happened, was provided. What was asked for (evidence) was provided. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/687 "2013-12-03T14:10:04Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Their testimony, which is the best evidence of what happened, was provided. What was asked for (evidence) was provided. Magiver has given us no clue that he’s actually \*read \*the testimony. > [@](#): > > [FONT=Arial]it was not realistic to think that we could task fast movers, jets, notionally in Aviano, Italy, 2 to 3 hours’ flying time away, without tankers, which were a minimum of 4 hours away in the middle of the night with no previous tasking[/FONT] > [FONT=Arial]\[/FONT] > [FONT=Arial]There was not enough time to deploy the assets, to provide the refueling they would have needed probably twice en route, given once while they are going, and if they’re going to have any on-station time, twice, those assets, those refueling assets were further out of reach than the jets in Italy – meaning in Aviano specifically. So it just wasn’t realistic.[/FONT] [FONT=Arial] > [@](#): > > And frankly I’ve heard, quote, ‘Well, why didn’t you just fly a fighter jet over and try and scare them with the noise or something?’ end quote. Well, given the number of surface-to-air missiles that have disappeared from Qadhafi’s arsenal, I would not have approved sending an aircraft, a single aircraft over Benghazi under those circumstances." [/FONT] > [@](#): > > With respect to sending in Special Forces or a small group of people to try and provide help, based on everything I have read, people really don’t know what was going on in Benghazi contemporaneously. And to send some small number of Special Forces or other troops in without knowing what the environment is, without knowing what the threat is, without having any intelligence in terms of what is actually going on on the ground I think would have been very dangerous. And, personally, I would not have approved that because we just don’t – it’s sort of **a cartoonish impression of the military capabilities** and military forces. The one thing that our forces are noted for is planning and preparation before we send people in harm’s way. And there just wasn’t time to do that. Bolding mine, as it perfectly encapsulates Magiver’s view of the military. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/688 "2013-12-03T16:20:34Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Not on this issue it isn’t. I’ve already cited that House Republicans have reached a conclusion on this rescue mission nonsense. I’ve already cited Boehner’s position on this. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/689 "2013-12-03T16:22:10Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > [FONT=Arial][SIZE=2]Magiver has given us no clue that he’s actually \*read \*the testimony. At the onset of the attack, how long was it going to last? I’ll let you think about that while contemplating the testimony. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/690 "2013-12-03T17:11:45Z")
And statements like this make no sense: “it was not realistic to think that we could task fast movers, jets, notionally in Aviano, Italy, 2 to 3 hours’ flying time away, without tankers, which were a minimum of 4 hours away in the middle of the night with no previous tasking” A C-130 has a range of 2300 miles. A C-17 has a range of 2700 miles. it’s a thousand miles from Aviano Italy to Benghazi. Aviano is in the northern part of Italy so they had all the Southern Airports to take on return fuel. They didn’t need tankers or drop tanks or anything special. The flying time quoted is extremely vague. Was it 2 hrs or 3 hrs? 2 hrs means he’s quoting a C-17 with a speed of 500 mph. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/691 "2013-12-03T17:17:03Z")
A C-130 is not a fast mover. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/692 "2013-12-03T17:20:26Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > And statements like this make no sense: > > “it was not realistic to think that we could task fast movers, jets, notionally in Aviano, Italy, 2 to 3 hours’ flying time away, without tankers, which were a minimum of 4 hours away in the middle of the night with no previous tasking” > > A C-130 has a range of 2300 miles. A C-17 has a range of 2700 miles. it’s a thousand miles from Aviano Italy to Benghazi. Aviano is in the northern part of Italy so they had all the Southern Airports to take on return fuel. They didn’t need tankers or drop tanks or anything special. > > The flying time quoted is extremely vague. Was it 2 hrs or 3 hrs? 2 hrs means he’s quoting a C-17 with a speed of 500 mph. Neither the C-130 nor the C-17 is a “fast mover”, which refers to jet-powered combat aircraft. Note the explicit reference to fighter jets. Unsurprisingly, combat aircraft like the F/A-18 have much shorter ranges than transport aircraft. What’s a C-130 or C-17 going to do above Benghazi other than get shot down? They are both unarmed transports. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/693 "2013-12-03T17:23:10Z")
And FTR, [Wiki lists the C-130s cruise speed](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_C-130_Hercules) as 330 miles/hour. I expect a KC-130 filled to bursting with 30 odd tons of fuely gifts goes slower than an empty one. So there’s your rough 4 hours. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/694 "2013-12-03T17:25:48Z")
According to [This](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aviano_Air_Base#Units), the Aviano base’s fighter complement is all F-16s. The F-16 has a combat radius (meaning the distance from takeoff to target, allowing for the return trip and loiter time) of…[340 miles.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-16) ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/695 "2013-12-03T17:46:56Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > At the onset of the attack, how long was it going to last? I’ll let you think about that while contemplating the testimony. I don’t know. Nobody knew…_which is kind of the fucking point_. Just a WAG here, but I suspect we probably don’t want the military going balls-to-the-wall at the very first drop of a hat in any random corner of the globe where a US military presence may or may not be received with open arms. Just one little morsel for you to chew on: if I thought my enemy would, in fact, go balls to the wall at the drop of a hat, I’m sending in a small team to make some commotion over \*here, \*then springing my serious attack way the hell over \*there, \*when my enemy is now completely and totally fucked 'cause they’ve sent all their military assets on a wild & meaningless goose chase. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/696 "2013-12-03T18:08:55Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I’ve already cited Boehner’s position on this. And you have not answered why Boehner does nothing to seriously counter all the horrible things he says the White House is doing. When do we get that? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/697 "2013-12-03T18:28:38Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > And FTR, [Wiki lists the C-130s cruise speed](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_C-130_Hercules) as 330 miles/hour. I expect a KC-130 filled to bursting with 30 odd tons of fuely gifts goes slower than an empty one. So there’s your rough 4 hours. he didn’t say 4 hrs. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/698 "2013-12-03T18:36:49Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > I don’t know. Nobody knew…_which is kind of the fucking point_… Yes, that IS the fucking point. “We couldn’t get there in time” is not an answer unless you know how long the attack would last. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/699 "2013-12-03T18:41:33Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > According to [This](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aviano_Air_Base#Units), the Aviano base’s fighter complement is all F-16s. > > The F-16 has a combat radius (meaning the distance from takeoff to target, allowing for the return trip and loiter time) of…[340 miles.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-16) If he was referring to an F-16 then it has the ferry range of 2600 miles. It would easily cruise there at ferry speeds in the timeline given. Combat radius takes into account the use of afterburners. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/700 "2013-12-03T18:48:54Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > If he was referring to an F-16 then it has the ferry range of 2600 miles. It would easily cruise there at ferry speeds in the timeline given. Combat radius takes into account the use of afterburners. Ferry range explicitly and specifically means loaded with fuel, maximum amount of external tanks and no combat ordnance or otherwise non-fuel related load whatsoever. Combat radius does not take use of afterburner specifically into account, either. It does account for weapons load (and the additional power & fuel it takes to drag the fuckers along) ; loiter time over target for acquisition, making one’s run, BDA etc… ; safety margins and so on ; all that stuff that’s necessary for any sort of combat operation, particularly a continuous close combat support one (as opposed to a get-in get-out straight bombing run). Try again, grasshopper, eventually you’ll say something not entirely silly. Statistically speaking. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466.md?page=34) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466.md?page=36)