# Benghazi Attack for Dummies. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 8, 2013, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466 "2013-11-08T23:46:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 36
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/701 "2013-12-03T18:58:55Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Ferry range explicitly means loaded with fuel, maximum amount of external tanks and no combat ordnance or otherwise non-fuel related load whatsoever. > > Combat radius does not take use of afterburner specifically into account, either. It does account for weapons load (and the additional power & fuel it takes to drag the fuckers along) ; loiter time over target for acquisition, making one’s run, BDA etc… ; safety margins and so on ; all that stuff that’s necessary for any sort of combat operation, particularly a continuous close combat support one (as opposed to a get-in get-out straight bombing run). > > Try again, grasshopper, eventually you’ll say something not entirely silly. Statistically speaking. Clearly you’ve never flown an airplane. max weight travel and empty weight travel would not account for a travel ratio difference of 7.7 to 1. Look at the C-17. it has a range ratio difference of 2.3 to 1 depending on payload. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/702 "2013-12-03T19:00:48Z")
Clearly you’ve never read a sentence. I didn’t say it did. Not _alone_. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/703 "2013-12-03T19:03:58Z")
So, I’m back now. Magiver, the thing (well, one of the things) you’re not understanding, is that the specific assets we had don’t matter. We didn’t have the intelligence necessary to deploy those assets. I’m gonna say that one more time. We didn’t have the intelligence necessary to deploy those assets. So it doesn’t really matter if there were jets two hours away. We didn’t have enough knowledge about what was going on to use those jets safely. Make sense? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/704 "2013-12-03T19:05:06Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Clearly you’ve never flown an airplane. max weight travel and empty weight travel would not account for a travel ratio difference of 7.7 to 1. Look at the C-17. it has a range ratio difference of 2.3 to 1 depending on payload. It’s 3.85 to 1. (2620/680. 340 is a radius, you have to double it for total range). Further, it’s not simply a matter of weight, combat range means weapons are mounted, ferry range means that drop tanks are fitted instead. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/705 "2013-12-03T19:09:53Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > So, I’m back now. Magiver, the thing (well, one of the things) you’re not understanding, is that the specific assets we had don’t matter. > > We didn’t have the intelligence necessary to deploy those assets. > > I’m gonna say that one more time. > > We didn’t have the intelligence necessary to deploy those assets. > > So it doesn’t really matter if there were jets two hours away. We didn’t have enough knowledge about what was going on to use those jets safely. > > Make sense? We had a drone on site in an hour. That’s one asset giving real time coverage. We had satellite coverage. That’s another asset. We had the NSA who could monitor communications. That’s another asset. We had people on the ground relaying information in real time. That’s another asset. What were we missing? What does it take to go into harms way that the military is specifically trained to do? Be specific. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/706 "2013-12-03T19:13:29Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Further, it’s not simply a matter of weight, combat range means weapons are mounted, ferry range means that drop tanks are fitted instead. There’s also that ferry range is calculated assuming the plane is going to be constantly flying in a straight line at its most fuel-efficient altitude and speed. The whole idea is to state exactly how far the airframe can safely \*ferry \*from point A to point B should it be provided with every possible go-far factor. Combat range assumes that the pilot might wish to bleed energy in a lazy turn at some point, or maybe a gentle climb - you know those flyboys, they’re crazy like that at the stick. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/707 "2013-12-03T19:14:21Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > We had a drone on site in an hour. That’s one asset giving real time coverage. We had satellite coverage. That’s another asset. We had the NSA who could monitor communications. That’s another asset. We had people on the ground relaying information in real time. That’s another asset. > > What were we missing? What does it take to go into harms way that the military is specifically trained to do? Be specific. you seem unwilling to accept that all the professionals in this field who had the responsibility for deciding what to do don’t agree with you. Maybe you should run for POTUS, win, and then make these decisions if the current crew isn’t up to the task. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/708 "2013-12-03T19:19:12Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > There’s also that ferry range is calculated assuming the plane is going to be constantly flying in a straight line at its most fuel-efficient altitude and speed. The whole idea is to state exactly how far the airframe can safely \*ferry \*from point A to point B should it be provided with every possible go-far factor. > > Combat range assumes that the pilot might wish to bleed energy in a lazy turn at some point, or maybe a gentle climb - you know those flyboys, they’re crazy like that at the stick. Right. I’ve even heard that they need time and thus fuel to loiter in the target area, acquire targets, and actually launch ordinance and engage in combat. It was possible to send an F-16 armed with only external fuel tanks from Aviano to Benghazi. That this wasn’t done is a shameful indictment of Obama, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/709 "2013-12-03T20:06:10Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > We had a drone on site in an hour. That’s one asset giving real time coverage. We had satellite coverage. That’s another asset. We had the NSA who could monitor communications. That’s another asset. We had people on the ground relaying information in real time. That’s another asset. > > What were we missing? What does it take to go into harms way that the military is specifically trained to do? Be specific. Knowledge of the situation. We had no idea who the enemy was, how much support in the town they had, or what kind of weapons they possessed. A drone in the air tells us nothing about that. We had no idea what route for extraction to take. How to safely insert the soldiers. Or what they would face. Shit, they couldn’t even get people out of the compound. Remember, the Libyans were amassing a huge armored convoy to get the staff out safely to the airport. You suggesting that we drop a huge armored convoy? You think it’s easy, we get that. But people who know more than you, consider more variables than you do. And those expert people, including two SoD and a handful of generals, think your version of things is childish and was likely to get people killed. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/710 "2013-12-03T22:14:31Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > you seem unwilling to accept that all the professionals in this field who had the responsibility for deciding what to do don’t agree with you. Maybe you should run for POTUS, win, and then make these decisions if the current crew isn’t up to the task. No no no. All he’s asking for is for the US government to publish the specific counterterrorism capabilities of forces in Europe and Africa, including their numbers, state of readiness, specific locations, access to airlift and intelligence, a comprehensive list if their capabilities and weaknesses, and all other possibly relevant information that can be provided about an issue that is not in contention among the country’s leading military experts and their congressional oversight committees. Seriously, what could go wrong by just publishing all that information on CT capabilities? ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/711 "2013-12-03T22:44:14Z")
> [@ravenman](#): > > no no no. All he’s asking for is for the us government to publish the specific counterterrorism capabilities of forces in europe and africa, including their numbers, state of readiness, specific locations, access to airlift and intelligence, a comprehensive list if their capabilities and weaknesses, and all other possibly relevant information that can be provided about an issue that is not in contention among the country’s leading military experts and their congressional oversight committees. > > Seriously, what could go wrong by just publishing all that information on ct capabilities? /THREAD. **Magiver** , your demands are utterly unreasonable on multiple levels. Give it a rest. Nobody cares about Benghazi. Not even you. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/712 "2013-12-03T22:58:22Z")
As the OP’er, and now somewhat less than a “dummy” on the matter, I suggest this thread be closed. No new meaningful discussion seems to be taking place any longer. Thanks to all who’ve contributed. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/713 "2013-12-03T23:35:45Z")
FWIW, I’ve learned a lot – serious and useful stuff – from this thread. Seriously (no snark) one of the things that most surprised me and most impresses me was **Magiver** ’s notes about how quickly a civilian charter flight can be gotten off the ground. I honestly would have thought such things had to be arranged days or even weeks in advance. This knowledge was quite an eye-opener for me. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/714 "2013-12-03T23:44:56Z")
I’ve learned that self-guiding parachutes for material drops are in use. I thought they were experimental. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/715 "2013-12-04T05:28:09Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Knowledge of the situation. > > We had no idea who the enemy was, how much support in the town they had, or what kind of weapons they possessed. A drone in the air tells us nothing about that. > > We had no idea what route for extraction to take. How to safely insert the soldiers. Or what they would face. Shit, they couldn’t even get people out of the compound. > > Remember, the Libyans were amassing a huge armored convoy to get the staff out safely to the airport. You suggesting that we drop a huge armored convoy? What did we know when we eventually showed up? > [@Lobohan](#): > > You think it’s easy, we get that. But people who know more than you, consider more variables than you do. And those expert people, including two SoD and a handful of generals, think your version of things is childish and was likely to get people killed. No, I don’t think it was easy. I said on the face of it it looked possible. No matter what Presidents do they will always be criticized. Comes with the job and they’re suppose to enter the office wearing big boy pants. The report covering all the other aspects of what happened didn’t read well at all. When the background information is left out covering the decisions made then inquiring minds should ask for why? Believe it or not the purpose of reviewing these things is to learn from the mistakes made. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 9:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/716 "2013-12-04T09:49:12Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > No matter what Presidents do they will always be criticized. Comes with the job and they’re suppose to enter the office wearing big boy pants. Good news! Obama handled this one pretty fucking well. Especially when you compare it to the opposition, who proceeded to politicize it literally before the fucking bodies were cold, and hasn’t stopped since, despite the general populace no longer giving a shit and any shred of controversy being long gone. > [@](#): > > The report covering all the other aspects of what happened didn’t read well at all. When the background information is left out covering the decisions made then inquiring minds should ask for why? Hmm… Well, as previously pointed out: [QUOTE=ravenman] no no no. All he’s asking for is for the us government to publish the **specific counterterrorism capabilities of forces in europe and africa** , including their numbers, state of readiness, specific locations, access to airlift and intelligence, a comprehensive list if their capabilities and weaknesses, and all other possibly relevant information that can be provided about an issue that is not in contention among the country’s leading military experts and their congressional oversight committees. [/QUOTE] Emphasis mine. Maybe, just maybe, we’re better off with not every schlub with an internet connection knowing exactly what anti-terrorism capabilities we have. Maybe, just maybe, some of the information has been held back because it would put lives at risk. Maybe, just maybe, when the military brass most capable of making decisions says “there wasn’t enough information” and doesn’t want to back that statement up as it would involve them revealing touchy military sectres, we should accept that, and not go scrounging for any excuse, _any excuse whatsoever_, to toss mud at the administration. > [@](#): > > Believe it or not the purpose of reviewing these things is to learn from the mistakes made. Yeah, I don’t believe that for a second. That’s not why you’re here, that’s not why Issa is still throwing his little hissyfits over it, and that’s not why this issue hasn’t died a swift and honorable death like it should have _almost a year ago_. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/717 "2013-12-04T14:33:15Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > What did we know when we eventually showed up? That an armored convoy can extract people from a location in (relative) safety (unlike, say, people on motorcycles or in modified Land Rovers). Until we get teleporters, an armored column is the safest way to move people. That Libyans probably know the safest routes, being full-time residents. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/718 "2013-12-04T17:23:52Z")
Sure, but if you live there and know the safest route, so does your enemy, who also lives there and knows which way you are likely to go. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/719 "2013-12-04T17:30:26Z")
Ah, but you know that he knows. And he knows that you know that he knows, but you know that too. Professional strategy comes in when you make sure he doesn’t know that you know that he knows that oh god I’ve gone cross-eyed. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/720 "2013-12-04T19:16:33Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Sure, but if you live there and know the safest route, so does your enemy, who also lives there and knows which way you are likely to go. That’s true enough. Also, I don’t pretend to possess any knowledge of the geography of Benghazi. That said, if there’s a route that’s well-known to have wide, well-lit streets, not much cover for snipers or RPG crews, and runs through neighborhoods that oppose the militias that attacked the consulate, it’d still be wise to take that route. Trying to deceive the enemy by taking a narrow, dark path through unfriendly neighborhoods _could_ work, but I don’t know that a 50-vehicle armored convoy can move fast enough to escape the city before the enemy redeployed along the riskier route. In either case, it beats Americans stationed in Tripoli making their best guess at it. Waiting for Libyans with armored vehicles trumps trying to get the people out via motorcycle or helicopter. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466.md?page=35) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466.md?page=37)