# Benghazi Attack for Dummies. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 8, 2013, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466 "2013-11-08T23:46:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2013, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/61 "2013-11-16T03:11:56Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Ok then, more precisely: > > Who’s “we?” > > What was the environment? Cite that “we” knew at the time what that was? > > Cite that “we” knew what the threat was? > To who was the drone providing real-time information? What was the nature and quality of that information? > > Those’d be a good start on my ignorance. Thanks! We, as in the political we. The White House. “We” knew what was going on because the embassy staff was in contact with the White House. complete with drone video. [From Forbes](http://www.forbes.com/sites/larrybell/2012/10/24/breaking-news-white-house-watched-benghazi-attacked-and-didnt-respond/): Just one hour after the seven-hour-long terrorist attacks upon the U.S. consulate in Benghazi began, our commander-in-chief, vice president, secretary of defense and their national security team gathered together in the Oval Office listening to phone calls from American defenders desperately under siege and watching real-time video of developments from a drone circling over the site. Are you suggesting the embassies of the most powerful nation on earth don’t have the capacity to communicate in real time? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2013, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/62 "2013-11-16T03:25:50Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Are you suggesting the embassies of the most powerful nation on earth don’t have the capacity to communicate in real time? I’m sorry I gave you the impression I was suggesting anything. Not my intention. So you’re arguing that there was a clear military understanding of the tactical situation on the ground, sufficient to commit military assets in time to assist? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2013, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/63 "2013-11-16T04:18:09Z")
> [@andros](#): > > I’m sorry I gave you the impression I was suggesting anything. Not my intention. > > So you’re arguing that there was a clear military understanding of the tactical situation on the ground, sufficient to commit military assets in time to assist? Sufficient to insert a specialized unit trained to deal with such events? I would have to say yes. They can insert anywhere they choose with the advantage of knowing where the attackers are. They can bring whatever equipment they choose with them. They can call in pinpoint airstrikes. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2013, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/64 "2013-11-16T05:17:04Z")
Plus, they’re invincible. So it doesn’t matter how many enemy troops are there or how they are armed, because…invincible. Yeah, sure, _Blackhawk Down_, I know. Those guys weren’t invincible. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2013, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/65 "2013-11-16T06:58:51Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Sufficient to insert a specialized unit trained to deal with such events? > > I would have to say yes. They can insert anywhere they choose with the advantage of knowing where the attackers are. They can bring whatever equipment they choose with them. They can call in pinpoint airstrikes. This is such profound and utter nonsense it floors me. You literally think you have a better grasp of deployment of troops than a successful SoD. Then you come up with a bullshit action movie version of what you think they should have done. You should be embarrassed of your former comment because I proved it beyond any doubt to be tripe, but instead, you somehow take it as cause to double down. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2013, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/66 "2013-11-16T12:07:38Z")
I would like to apologize to John Mace, Magiver and jtgain for being boorish and partisan and silly. There is really no excuse for having lack of respect for your world view on such things such as asking for a source on the subject of the thead to back up claims, declarations, narratives such as this: Excerpts from this thread alone: “We were told that it was a result of a YouTube video …” 'Clinton seemed to want to pin things on the video. " "It was mishandled by the White House who then went on to blame a movie director over the assault. " “but the idea that the administration didn’t initially blame the attack on protests over the video is nonsense” Please accept my sincere apology: full quotes and my request for sourcing provided below: > [@jtgain](#): > > First, I don’t think it is the dereliction of duty that some in the GOP want it to be, but I have concerns about the judgment of the administration in the aftermath. > > We were told that it was a result of a YouTube video put out that was disrespectful to Islam that resulted in a spontaneous demonstration outside of the embassy that got out of hand. Many news stories covered the video and Obama and his lackeys talked about how awful, awful, awful the video was and that the people who published it were terrible, terrible, terrible, yet freedom of speech was alive in America and dangnabit we can’t do anything about it. > > Then, in an Orwellian twist, it was a pre-planned terrorist attack because of the 9/11 anniversary. Nothing about the video. A very bad, evil terrorist attack. > > Video? What youtube video? We never said that; that’s just GOP lies and talking points. There was no video!!! > > I remember them saying that it started because of a video. Will I soon learn to love big brother? > [@John\_Mace](#): > > Here’s [the timeline.](http://www.factcheck.org/2012/10/benghazi-timeline/) You can judge for yourself what the administration’s response was. > > On the day after the attack, “administration officials” were hedging their bets, but Clinton seemed to want to pin things on the video. If you ask me, it was a bit of both, but one would think Clinton’s statements would carry more weight. > [@Magiver](#): > > It was mishandled by the White House who then went on to blame a movie director over the assault. We had assets specifically to deal with this in Italy and they were not activated. The only fast response by the White House was to send Susan Rice out in front of cameras with a bogus story. > > There is no football in this. It was mishandled and covered up. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Would Magiver be appropriate and cite the exact quote from an Obama White House official where they claimed the actual heavily armed extremist assault that resulted in the killing of Ambassador Stevens and one other American was blamed upon the director of a video who was in California at the time. > > I’ll wait for Magiver to produce it. > I recall Ambassador Susan Rice going on the Sunday AM news shows and blaming the killing of four Americans on extremists that brought heavy weapons. > > I recall that it was revealed later that Rice repeated the CIA talking points near verbatim that were given to the WH and Congress. > > There is no doubt who the White House blamed. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Can you provide a link to the emails that lead to the “blaming of the videos”. If they have been presented to the US people you must know where we can see what you are talking about. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > Wahhh! The CIA made me do it!! You can’t blame me-- the CIA hid coded messages in my talking points, and I was unable to filter them out. I said it, but I didn’t _want_ to say it, so it’s the same as if I _didn’t_ say it. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > Look, I’m on record as saying the Republicans are trumping up this whole Benghazi thing, making a mountain out of a mole hill. But that doesn’t mean I’m not going to call bullshit when I see it. That post was simple double-speak. The administration didn’t say it, even though they did, and besides, it was the CIA that made them do it!! > > Say what you will about the Republicans, but the idea that the administration didn’t initially blame the attack on protests over the video is nonsense. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > All you need to do Mace, is show the forum readers the quote where the “attack” was blamed on the video. The truth is that the CIA first reported that a crowd had gathered outside the location in Benghazi where Ambassador Stevens and one other was killed and it was surmised to be related to the earlier events in Cairo. > > It’s on record Mace that the Administration blamed extremists that brought heavy weapons to the protest/gathered crowd and attacked and killed our Ambassador. > > So where is your source for your claim, Mace? > [@John\_Mace](#): > > Dude, you started a whole thread on that subject, got your ass handed to you, so there’s no need to go there again. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > It continues that John Mace’s preferred method of argument is one of personal attack rather than provide the source for John Mace’s claim/repetition of conservative talking points that the Administration blamed the killing of Ambassador and three others on the youTube video. > What thread was that anyway? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2013, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/67 "2013-11-16T12:48:40Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > This is such profound and utter nonsense it floors me. > > You literally think you have a better grasp of deployment of troops than a successful SoD. Then you come up with a bullshit action movie version of what you think they should have done. > > You should be embarrassed of your former comment because I proved it beyond any doubt to be tripe, but instead, you somehow take it as cause to double down. I strongly agree with you that Secretary Gates has a better handle on what could have been done during the early stages of the attack where Ambassador Stevens was killed than anyone posting on this forum. During those early moments - Most Americans were evacuated and secured . It was unfortunate that Stevens and one other were separated from the rescued group and was overcome by the smoke from diesel fires that were set by the attackers. Knowing that plus the fact that there was a lull in the fighting before the two former Navy Seals were killed at the CIA annex by a remotely fired rocket that hit the roof of the CIA annex makes opposition to Sec Gate’s comments clear, understandable and accurate. Any attempt to dismiss Gates on this is unfounded. Those fact make it clear that a Special Ops team could not have gotten there in time to save Stevens … and nothing short of carpet bombing the entire perimeter of the CIA annex site would have eliminated the attacker who fired the rocket later in the day. I don’t think we could have justified carpet bombing the mostly friendly Benghazi residents and inflicting heavy civilian casualties in the process to protect CIA assets at a secret CIA operated site. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2013, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/68 "2013-11-17T01:38:22Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > This is such profound and utter nonsense it floors me. > > You literally think you have a better grasp of deployment of troops than a successful SoD. Then you come up with a bullshit action movie version of what you think they should have done. What action movie scenario did I propose exactly? How is the use of specially trained troops all of a sudden a fantasy against groups like Al Queda? Explain why it’s impossible to parachute a mile away from the conflict and then form up to protect US assets and citizens. Seriously, what is the big movie fantasy you see here? They have all the advantage of stealth, equipment and surveillance at their disposal plus they train for such events. Police are brought into shooting incidences all the time in the United States with far far less assets to work with. If we can’t use troops to fight off attacks of such a small scale then there is no point in having a military. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2013, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/69 "2013-11-17T01:41:00Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Please accept my sincere apology: Well bless your heart. Apology accepted with all the sincerity it was delivered with. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2013, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/70 "2013-11-17T01:42:52Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Those fact make it clear that a Special Ops team could not have gotten there in time to save Stevens … and nothing short of carpet bombing the entire perimeter of the CIA annex site would have eliminated the attacker who fired the rocket later in the day. > > I don’t think we could have justified carpet bombing the mostly friendly Benghazi residents and inflicting heavy civilian casualties in the process to protect CIA assets at a secret CIA operated site. Wow, is it 1942? Carpet bombing? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2013, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/71 "2013-11-17T02:01:37Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > They can call in pinpoint airstrikes. “Pinpoint” airstrike still have error radii of a couple dozen meters. That’s a a lot of boom to drop on random innocents by mistake, and even if you don’t give a fuck about all them brown people it might land on, consider it could also have landed on the US embassy itself. Or the troops calling in the danger close airstrike. Oops. Not to mention that a building violently going down in a populated area will always cause innocent casualties, even if the bomb is spot on target - that masonry going up must come down according to MC Newton. That building is also probably going to be inhabitated. There’ll be pictures of dead children the next day. There will be dead children, period. So, in spite of the competition for that spot, not one of your greatest ideas. > [@](#): > > Police are brought into shooting incidences (sic) all the time in the United States with far far less assets to work with. Last I checked, people don’t have rocket launchers to shoot at cops in the US. And few shooting incidents involve crowds of armed citizens packing Russian assault rifles - when they do it’s called a “siege” (or a “revolution” :)) and it typically ends badly. Not to mention the tiny issue of Libya’s sovereignty. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2013, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/72 "2013-11-17T03:52:49Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > “Pinpoint” airstrike still have error radii of a couple dozen meters. Maybe if an old GPS delivered weapon was used. Why would such a weapon be used? > [@Kobal2](#): > > That’s a a lot of boom to drop on random innocents by mistake, and even if you don’t give a fuck about all them brown people it might land on, consider it could also have landed on the US embassy itself. Or the troops calling in the danger close airstrike. Oops. Brown people? That’s the line you’re going with now? Can’t reason through an argument so you throw in racial issues? > [@Kobal2](#): > > Not to mention that a building violently going down in a populated area will always cause innocent casualties, even if the bomb is spot on target - that masonry going up must come down according to MC Newton. That building is also probably going to be inhabitated. There’ll be pictures of dead children the next day. There will be dead children, period. why would we bring down a building? We were talking about boots on the ground. No need to carpet bomb anything. No need for a $1.4M cruise missile. Something like a Hydra 70 with an APKWS laser guided system would deliver RPG sized munitions to the exact location designated. > [@Kobal2](#): > > Last I checked, people don’t have rocket launchers to shoot at cops in the US. And few shooting incidents involve crowds of armed citizens packing Russian assault rifles - when they do it’s called a “siege” (or a “revolution” :)) and it typically ends badly. ever heard of a bomb squad? [They’ve had one in Los Angeles since 1950](http://www.lapdonline.org/emergency_services_division/content_basic_view/6523). Either they have a vivid imagination or it’s on the list of shit they have to deal with. Police may not regularly see RPG’s but the bullets fired at them are just as real as those shot at the military. They put themselves in harms way as they are trained to do. > [@Kobal2](#): > > Not to mention the tiny issue of Libya’s sovereignty. We’re suddenly concerned about the Libyan’s are we? Just got done bombing the fuck out of them but we’ll pretend that didn’t happen. Well no we won’t actually. Here is a partial list of countries we sent cruise missiles to: Afghanistan Iraq Libya Pakistan Sudan Yemen Obama’s been bombing a shitload of brown people since he’s been in office. Is that why he’s not concerned with their sovereignty? Because of the color of their skin? We have a right as a country to defend ourselves at embassies and it is the duty of the President to do so. He is the CIC. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2013, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/73 "2013-11-17T04:00:25Z")
Gentlemen, you can’t fight in here! This is Great Debates! ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2013, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/74 "2013-11-17T04:23:52Z")
First cowboy: Left cross. Uppercut. Jab. Second cowboy: Them’s fightin’ words. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2013, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/75 "2013-11-17T11:12:37Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Wow, is it 1942? Carpet bombing? Will there be a response to my argument and point or is this it? How does a Special Forces team locate the site of the rocket that was launched that killed the two former Navy Seals at the CIA Annex? IF you have no legitimate response I understand but why would you continue to make a case that you know more than Secretary Gates about what could have been done on that day?. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2013, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/76 "2013-11-17T11:20:04Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Explain why it’s impossible to parachute a mile away from the conflict and then form up to protect US assets and citizens. Seriously, what is the big movie fantasy you see here? They have all the . It is not impossible. It was impractical and not what was needed. Early after the initial attack Ninety Percent of the Americans had already been evacuated so your "parachute a mile away from the conflict and then form up " makes no practical sense even in hindsight. It was a lone fired rocket that killed the last two Americans of the day who were at the CIA Annex. Most Americans were evacuated. Why can’t you accept the conditions on the ground that do not support your complaint about what was not done? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2013, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/77 "2013-11-17T13:45:56Z")
My confidence in the fact that conservatives are savvy about the realities of military actions is once again shaken. The only details that magiver left out are that the mission leader will be smoking a fat cigar, and the mission roster will include a wisecracking white guy, a hard edged tough as nails Hispanic woman and a big bald black guy. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2013, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/78 "2013-11-17T14:19:48Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Will there be a response to my argument and point or is this it? How does a Special Forces team locate the site of the rocket that was launched that killed the two former Navy Seals at the CIA Annex? > > IF you have no legitimate response I understand but why would you continue to make a case that you know more than Secretary Gates about what could have been done on that day?. It was a legitimate response to an incredibly odd statement. To start with the idea of carpet bombing anything is an archaic waste of time. I don’t understand why you would suggest something like that. As for the location of the group attacking the embassy they were under surveillance from drones. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2013, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/79 "2013-11-17T14:33:30Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > My confidence in the fact that conservatives are savvy about the realities of military actions is once again shaken. > > The only details that magiver left out are that the mission leader will be smoking a fat cigar, and the mission roster will include a wisecracking white guy, a hard edged tough as nails Hispanic woman and a big bald black guy. you haven’t explained what was complex about a mission involving advanced surveillance of an enemy that lacked the modern training and equipment of a 1st world military. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2013, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/80 "2013-11-17T14:35:09Z")
I find myself torn. When considering the appropriateness and abilitites of American’s military response in Benghazi, do I trust former Sec. Def. Robert Gates, retired Admiral Mike Mullen, former Ambassador Thomas Pickering, and this administration, or **Magiver**? Tough call. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466.md?page=5)