# Benghazi Attack for Dummies. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 8, 2013, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466 "2013-11-08T23:46:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 52
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2014, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/1021 "2014-02-06T18:43:08Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > her response was to a question asked if she would have any “do-overs”. If she made the right decisions then there isn’t anything else she could have done over. I’ll leave you to your hero worship. Got things to do. Have you never made a decision you knew to be right, but still regretted and questioned to yourself? If not, you’re a lucky fellow. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2014, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/1022 "2014-02-06T19:08:02Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > On a side now, I bet everyone a dollar that **acewiza** is going to complain that I just personally attacked him again because of this post. I don’t want to risk that dollar; I need it to offer it to \*\*Acewiza \*\*to get him to post more of his bullshit in this thread. Every single thing he’s offered here as been shot down in pretty much the most humiliating (well, message-board-humiliating) way possible. That’s worth a buck, easy. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2014, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/1023 "2014-02-06T19:33:43Z")
[So much for earning a buck.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=715096) ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2014, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/1024 "2014-02-06T22:05:32Z")
So I guess this thread now becomes the Magiver show. Tell us again why your interpretation of events should be trusted, when people who know way more than you do, disagree? ---
**Author:** ![Oliveritaly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oliveritaly/32/15233_2.png) [@Oliveritaly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oliveritaly)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2014, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/1025 "2014-02-07T10:57:19Z")
Well to give Magiver credit I did prefer his parachuting dirt bike fantasy to the lets use an F16 for strafing fantasy… ---
**Author:** ![not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_what_you_d_expect/32/3246_2.png) [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_what_you_d_expect)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2014, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/1026 "2014-02-12T12:22:55Z")
[http://thinkprogress.org/world/2014/02/11/3276171/gop-benghazi-military-hasc/](http://thinkprogress.org/world/2014/02/11/3276171/gop-benghazi-military-hasc/) So the GOP report acknowledges that the military couldn’t have changed the outcome. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2014, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/1027 "2014-02-12T13:32:35Z")
The cover-up goes even further than we thought! ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2014, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/1028 "2014-02-12T13:40:26Z")
Dear Og, they even got to \*Issa \*… ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2014, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/1029 "2014-02-12T19:02:24Z")
> [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](#): > > [http://thinkprogress.org/world/2014/02/11/3276171/gop-benghazi-military-hasc/](http://thinkprogress.org/world/2014/02/11/3276171/gop-benghazi-military-hasc/) > > So the GOP report acknowledges that the military couldn’t have changed the outcome. There is no such definitive statement in the report at all. It’s an interesting read and makes the State Department look pretty bad. The is a reason Hillary said she had regrets over it. The State Department reduced the Special Forces unit from 16 to 4 in August. This was in a country that just came out of a civil war that involved factions known to be dangerous to the United States. Findings I. In assessing military posture in anticipation of the September 11 anniversary, White House officials failed to comprehend or ignored the dramatically deteriorating security situation in Libya and the growing threat to U.S. interests in the region. Official public statements seem to have exaggerated the extent and rigor of the security assessment conducted at the time. II. U.S. personnel in Benghazi were woefully vulnerable in September 2012 because a.) the administration did not direct a change in military force posture, b.) there was no intelligence of a specific “imminent” threat in Libya, and c.) the Department of State, which has primary responsibility for diplomatic security, favored a reduction of Department of Defense security personnel in Libya before the attack. III. Defense Department officials believed nearly from the outset of violence in Benghazi that it was a terrorist attack rather than a protest gone awry, and the President subsequently permitted the military to respond with minimal direction. IV. The U.S. military’s response to the Benghazi attack was severely degraded because of the location and readiness posture of U.S. forces, and because of lack of clarity about how the terrorist action was unfolding. However, given the uncertainty about the prospective length and scope of the attack, military commanders did not take all possible steps to prepare for a more extended operation. V. There was no “stand down” order issued to U.S. military personnel in Tripoli who sought to join the fight in Benghazi. However, because official reviews after the attack were not sufficiently comprehensive, there was confusion about the roles and responsibilities of these individuals. VI. The Department of Defense is working to correct many weaknesses revealed by the Benghazi attack, but the global security situation is still deteriorating and military resources continue to decline. These points all go into detail. For instance, they did consider the use of a gunship so the idea of an F-16 was not discounted. They also talked about calling up an F-16 for a number of reasons. One was as a weapons platform which I mentioned earlier. The other was to make low passes to see if they could rattle the attackers. It doesn’t mention if they had the ground targeting equipment needed to use the F-16 as a weapons platform. As for the no stand down order it states right in the report they ordered people who were getting ready to go to Benghazi to remain in place (Tripoli). And this was AFTER the people in Tripoli were moved to safe locations. They traded a known event that required action for one that had been addressed and made safer. The 20/20 hindsight excuse for a medic doesn’t make sense because the Libyans themselves took US personnel to a hospital. Were the hospitals under attack? No. Was Tripoli? No. One of the FAST teams actually stopped to change clothes at the request of the Libyan Govt. If we’re talking with the Libyan govt then where is there support in Tripoli? Why aren’t they used to bolster security there to free up our options? So as it stands now, too little, too late and a slow response to a situation without a known end. The State Department made the situation worse by removing personnel weeks before the anniversary of 9/11 against the advice of others. They did this in a country that just came out of a civil war using combatants known to be hostile to the United States. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2014, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/1030 "2014-02-12T19:22:22Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > There is no such definitive statement in the report at all. Did you read page 17 of the report? “Given the military’s preparations on September 11, 2012, majority [meaning Republican] members [of the House Armed Services Committee] **have not yet discerned any response alternatives that could have likely changed the outcome of the Benghazi attack**.” They wrote exactly what **not what you’d expect** said and what you say they didn’t say. > [@](#): > > For instance, they did consider the use of a gunship so the idea of an F-16 was not discounted. They also talked about calling up an F-16 for a number of reasons. One was as a weapons platform which I mentioned earlier. The other was to make low passes to see if they could rattle the attackers. It doesn’t mention if they had the ground targeting equipment needed to use the F-16 as a weapons platform. Again, I don’t know what you’re reading, but it isn’t this report. The report on pages 18-20 states: > [@](#): > > Similarly, the U.S. Air Force F-16 fighters stationed at Aviano, Italy at the time were configured for training flights. None were on combat alert. . . . > > Even after the attack started, General Ham and others in the Department **discounted** the possibility of beginning the process to arm and dispatch one or more of these fighters. . . . > > As for scrambling an unarmed fighter jet, Major General Roberson, a veteran F-16 pilot, discussed the theoretical possibility of such an overflight with the committee . . . > > This is because, he explained, “experienced” combatants can discern “show of force” overflights from aerial attacks and react accordingly.\*\* “[T]hey know what it means. It means there [are] no bombs dropping. It just means you are trying to let them know you are there.”\*\* So an F-16 pilot basically says that experienced combatants wouldn’t be scared by an airplane at low altitude. > [@Magiver](#): > > As for the no stand down order it states right in the report they ordered people who were getting ready to go to Benghazi to remain in place (Tripoli). So you’re basically still maintaining that there was a “stand down” order after literally everyone else acknowledges that there was no stand down order? Do you even know what the term stand down means? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2014, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/1031 "2014-02-12T19:24:34Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > They wrote exactly what **not what you’d expect** said and what you say they didn’t say. I had to read that sentence three times to get it. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2014, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/1032 "2014-02-12T19:25:39Z")
I noticed that as well after I posted it. I thought, “Why did I put that part of the sentence in bold? And why doesn’t it make a lick of sense? Oh yeah…” ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2014, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/1033 "2014-02-12T19:45:03Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > There is no such definitive statement in the report at all. It’s an interesting read and makes the State Department look pretty bad. The is a reason Hillary said she had regrets over it. The State Department reduced the Special Forces unit from 16 to 4 in August. This was in a country that just came out of a civil war that involved factions known to be dangerous to the United States. As I’ve said all along, the legitimate criticism is in the lead-up to the attack, and not the response to it, which was as best as could be managed under the circumstances. > [@Magiver](#): > > These points all go into detail. For instance, they did consider the use of a gunship so the idea of an F-16 was not discounted. They discuss the use of an AC-130 gunship, which is a close-air support gunship, and not an F-16 relying on its 20mm cannon, which is not. The report doesn’t address the idea of using F-16s to strafe attackers, because it’s foolishness. > [@Magiver](#): > > As for the no stand down order it states right in the report they ordered people who were getting ready to go to Benghazi to remain in place (Tripoli). And this was AFTER the people in Tripoli were moved to safe locations. They traded a known event that required action for one that had been addressed and made safer. The 20/20 hindsight excuse for a medic doesn’t make sense because the Libyans themselves took US personnel to a hospital. Were the hospitals under attack? No. Was Tripoli? No. That’s the same 4-man team that’s been discussed here at length. The rationale was protecting Americans: > [@](#): > > At that time, Rear Admiral Brian L. Losey, SOCAFRICA’s commander, conveyed an order to Lieutenant Colonel Gibson to remain in Tripoli to defend Americans there.100 Rear Admiral Losey said he was concerned about the possibility of follow-on attacks in Tripoli or a potential for attempts at hostage taking.101 Preferring to move, however, Lieutenant Colonel Gibson told the committee he was “visibly upset” at the time.102 But, Rear Admiral Losey explained to the committee that it was rooted in his belief that Lieutenant Colonel Gibson’s team was “the only military element . . . in Tripoli that had any security experience whatsoever” and “it seemed prudent” to divide the few military personnel in Libya between Tripoli and Benghazi rather than concentrate them in one location.103 He said his decision was based on consultation with two other officers and the three had “about 90 years of collective Special Operations experience” between them.104 > [@Magiver](#): > > One of the FAST teams actually stopped to change clothes at the request of the Libyan Govt. If we’re talking with the Libyan govt then where is there support in Tripoli? Why aren’t they used to bolster security there to free up our options? Without knowing the timeline of this, we just don’t know. The request to change clothes could have come after everyone had been evacuated from Benghazi, in which case a show of good faith to the Libyan government is more important than rushing a platoon to a city where no one is in danger. Remember, over 12 hours passed between the evacuation and the FAST platoon’s arrival in Libya. > [@Magiver](#): > > So as it stands now, too little, too late and a slow response to a situation without a known end. That there was no known end itself justifies keeping someone in Tripoli to defend Americans there. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Duality](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.duality/32/4098_2.png) [@Mr.Duality](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Duality)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2014, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/1034 "2014-02-13T01:03:07Z")
Please, please put this thread out of its misery. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2014, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/1035 "2014-02-13T01:29:16Z")
This thread has gone to a farm, out in the country, where it can roam freely and play with all the other threads. Every once in a while, it stops and thinks of you, and smiles. ---
**Author:** ![Randolph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Randolph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Randolph)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2014, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/1036 "2014-02-13T03:27:13Z")
Don’t stop now, we’re just about to uncover the real truth. I’m sure if we just keep digging… ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2014, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/1037 "2014-02-13T06:30:30Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > So you’re basically still maintaining that there was a “stand down” order after literally everyone else acknowledges that there was no stand down order? Do you even know what the term stand down means? They were ready to go, AFTER the people in Tripoli were relocated, and were told not to. As for the F-16 I mentioned this for 2 reasons. One, they considered the use of a gunship so that was on the table so an F-16 could serve in some capacity as ground support. And second, they can use it as a weapons platform which is a more likely scenario. That makes it a stand off and deliver system flown at altitudes that would not make it a target unless the combatants had radar and could pick it out from any other high altitude commercial aircraft. If the United States can’t cough up one tanker from all of NATO’s European fleet then something is seriously wrong with our military. Having a spy drone on site combined with a loitering weapons platform would have been a great asset for the group from Tripoli to use. And again, they didn’t know the timeline they were facing. They should have launched what they had. This is how options are created. You can’t use what isn’t sent. From the report: Although given their location and readiness status it was not possible to dispatch armed aircraft before survivors left Benghazi, the committee will continue to evaluate why DOD found it \*\*unnecessary \*\*to begin to prepare fighters and make other arrangements, especially in light of the concern that the hostilities could spread to Tripoli Highlighting mine. About the only person who doesn’t get any blame in this (unless you include the media bullshit about protestors) is President Obama. Everybody else fell short of the mark. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2014, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/1038 "2014-02-13T06:37:09Z")
> [@Randolph](#): > > Don’t stop now, we’re just about to uncover the real truth. I’m sure if we just keep digging… I’m just agreeing with Hilary. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2014, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/1039 "2014-02-13T08:05:17Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > …And again, they didn’t know the timeline they were facing. They should have launched what they had. This is how options are created. You can’t use what isn’t sent… Ah! So, an _improvisational_ force! Now, that’s thinking outside the box, tactically speaking! Send whatever you can get your hands on, and hope you will know what to do with them once they get there! Hey, that’s so crazy, it just might _work!_ Wait, no, crazy doesn’t work. Forgot that for a second, so dazzling was the concept. Still, you keep thinking, **Magiver** , that’s what your good at! ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2014, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/1040 "2014-02-13T08:17:07Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Dear Og, they even got to \*Issa \*… Yeah, but he’s an Arab, they can’t be trusted. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466.md?page=51) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466.md?page=53)