# Benghazi Attack for Dummies. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 8, 2013, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466 "2013-11-08T23:46:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2013, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/101 "2013-11-18T14:44:16Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > There’s a rapid deployment thingy stationed in Spain, IIRC. Are there Special Operations troops, airplanes, parachutes, and armored vehicles in that country which is at least 1,200 miles away? Because I don’t think "rapid deployment’ in the military means as fast as you think it does. Again, if these proposals were made in the heat of the moment, that’s one thing, but we have the benefit of hindsight now. The idea of putting together a rescue package (including Special Operations, weapons, and apparently vehicles), getting them all hooked up with parachutes (something tells me that armored vehicles aren’t typically sitting around with parachutes attached), getting a plane, figuring out where exactly all of this stuff is going to be dropped, getting some kind of plan together for how to get to the compound, flying for at least three hours, probably fighting their way through the city, and so on and so on… Look, it’s just not credible to me, knowing what we know today, to suggest that a competent rescue mission could have been thrown together and on the ground within a couple hours. The flight time from Spain, Stuttgart or Djibouti alone blows that timeline to bits. So I just looked this up: the Maersk Alabama was hijacked on a Wednesday. According to [this](http://hamptonroads.com/2009/04/3-shots-3-kills-how-seals-carried-out-rescue), the SEALs who were found to be the best qualified to deal with the situation had to be flown in from Virginia and arrived on a Saturday. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2013, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/102 "2013-11-18T14:52:33Z")
Ah-ha: > [@](#): > > When fully operational, the unit will be required to be airborne within six hours of receiving orders, providing the type of rapid response that the Pentagon says was not possible during the Benghazi attack. [Cite.](http://security.blogs.cnn.com/2013/04/25/u-s-marine-rapid-response-force-deploying-to-spain-base/) So the idea is that within six hours, the Marines would land three hours later at the Benghazi airport, which is 14 miles from the compound… add up the time, and the very earliest the Marines could have gotten there would be maybe 8am or even 9am. The chartered jet with the evacuees from the compound took off at 7:30am. The timing just doesn’t work at all! ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2013, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/103 "2013-11-18T15:15:36Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Ah-ha: [Cite.](http://security.blogs.cnn.com/2013/04/25/u-s-marine-rapid-response-force-deploying-to-spain-base/) > > So the idea is that within six hours, the Marines would land three hours later at the Benghazi airport! Which is if they have permission to fly over Algeria, otherwise it would have to go via Italy and have to refuel. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2013, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/104 "2013-11-18T15:19:34Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > Which is if they have permission to fly over Algeria, otherwise it would have to go via Italy and have to refuel. Yep, and it’s also assuming that either the President is authorizing an invasion of Libya to rescue the compound, or the Libyans grant permission for troops to land in the country. There isn’t standing permission from other countries to simply fly in the US armed forces to their territory for them to start shooting bad guys whenever we find it preferable. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2013, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/105 "2013-11-18T15:27:01Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Yep, and it’s also assuming that either the President is authorizing an invasion of Libya to rescue the compound, or the Libyans grant permission for troops to land in the country. There isn’t standing permission from other countries to simply fly in the US armed forces to their territory for them to start shooting bad guys whenever we find it preferable. What are you, some kind of Communist?! UNILATERAL! SUPERPOWER! AMERICA FUCK YEAH! (/snark, if it’s absolutely necessary) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2013, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/106 "2013-11-18T15:41:26Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Yep, and it’s also assuming that either the President is authorizing an invasion of Libya to rescue the compound, or the Libyans grant permission for troops to land in the country. There isn’t standing permission from other countries to simply fly in the US armed forces to their territory for them to start shooting bad guys whenever we find it preferable. Not that I think this is a huge factor, but that sure didn’t seem to matter when we after ObL in Pakistan. Of course, he had months to make that decision, not hours. ---
**Author:** ![Wolf333](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolf333/32/3460_2.png) [@Wolf333](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolf333)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2013, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/107 "2013-11-18T16:24:53Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > There’s a rapid deployment thingy stationed in Spain, IIRC. It’s not what you think it is… > [@](#): > > FAST officials are quick to point out that their anti-terrorism job doesn’t involve counter-terrorism missions – like crashing through skylights, Delta Force-style, to rescue hostages and kill terrorists – but instead includes preventing such incidents. > > “We are defensive in nature,” Petrucci said. “Site security is our bread and butter.” [http://specialoperations.com/USMC/FAST/default.html](http://specialoperations.com/USMC/FAST/default.html) ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2013, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/108 "2013-11-18T16:45:48Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Not that I think this is a huge factor, but that sure didn’t seem to matter when we after ObL in Pakistan. Of course, he had months to make that decision, not hours. [Maybe it did.](http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/may/09/osama-bin-laden-us-pakistan-deal) Depends on who you believe. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2013, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/109 "2013-11-18T17:27:47Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > There’s a rapid deployment thingy stationed in Spain, IIRC. > [@Wolf333](#): > > It’s not what you think it is… Ah yes, the FAST team in Rota was exactly what I was thinking of, in reply to the question where any would be help would have to come from. In fact they were the ones sent to ‘re-secure’ the place. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2013, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/110 "2013-11-18T17:43:24Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Ah-ha: [Cite.](http://security.blogs.cnn.com/2013/04/25/u-s-marine-rapid-response-force-deploying-to-spain-base/) > > So the idea is that within six hours, the Marines would land three hours later at the Benghazi airport, which is 14 miles from the compound… add up the time, and the very earliest the Marines could have gotten there would be maybe 8am or even 9am. The chartered jet with the evacuees from the compound took off at 7:30am. The timing just doesn’t work at all! In order to save Amb Stevens US medics would have had to arrive within 30 to 40 minutes of the first notification of the attack, find him, and treat him for smoke asphyxiation better than he recieved at the Libyan hospital. > [@](#): > > (CBS/AP) TRIPOLI, Libya - The Libyan doctor who treated U.S. ambassador Christopher Stevens says the diplomat died of severe asphyxiation and that he tried for 90 minutes to revive him. > > Ziad Abu Zeid told The Associated Press on Wednesday that Stevens was brought to the Benghazi Medical Center by Libyans the night before, with no other Americans and that initially no one realized he was the ambassador. > > Abu Zeid said Stevens had “severe asphyxia,” apparently from smoke inhalation, causing stomach bleeding, but had no other injuries. Magiver has posted that a battle raged for eight hours and Americans could have all been saved if Special Forces had been ordered in. Why don’t we correct Magiver on the timeline and the reality that very little from outside the area could have been done to save the ambassador or the former Navy Seals at the CIA annex? ---
**Author:** ![Wolf333](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolf333/32/3460_2.png) [@Wolf333](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolf333)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2013, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/111 "2013-11-18T17:44:23Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > Ah yes, the FAST team in Rota was exactly what I was thinking of, in reply to the question where any would be help would have to come from. > > In fact they were the ones sent to ‘re-secure’ the place. And their required response time is 24 hours. In this case, they made it in 23. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2013, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/112 "2013-11-18T17:57:33Z")
But Hillary is just evil! Incompetent! A cold, callous bitch who didn’t care if the ambassador got killed as long as it hurt America! Don’t you get it? That’s what this is all about! The \*next \*set of House hearings will finally bring all that out in detail, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/113 "2013-11-19T02:37:50Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > You said drop troops “a mile away from the conflict.” Are you suggesting that an armored vehicle would also be air-dropped into a city on short notice? Why would you suggest special forces use armored vehicles to transit a short distance? [They would use light weight, fast moving vehicles](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranger_Special_Operations_Vehicle). They would use ground to ground and air to ground weapons capable of a focus attack. They would use drones, satellites and spotters to locate enemy combatants. This is the purpose for which they were trained. Someone told them to stand down. No energy has been wasted on the promised transparency of what happened. Instead it was invested in promoting a lie to cover it up. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/114 "2013-11-19T02:57:30Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Why would you suggest special forces use armored vehicles to transit a short distance? [They would use light weight, fast moving vehicles](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranger_Special_Operations_Vehicle). They would use ground to ground and air to ground weapons capable of a focus attack. They would use drones, satellites and spotters to locate enemy combatants. This is the purpose for which they were trained. And so you’re still proposing that the Special Forces could just parachute that vehicle into a city. Riiiight. And now you’re proposing that drones and air to ground weapons could have been made available to defend the compound, despite the fact that military leaders have repeatedly said that there were no armed drones within thousands of miles. Again, where do you think all this stuff would come from? Do you think there’s a secret stash of millions of dollars of Special Ops military equipment in every embassy? Do you think we have a large military base just a hop, skip and a jump away from Benghazi? Do you think that military bases have all this stuff and Special Forces just loaded and waiting on C-17s, 24/7, all around the world, just waiting to get in the air? You haven’t addressed my fundamental point at all: any military help was many hours away at a minimum. Even the new Marine security unit stood up in the wake of Benghazi would not have gotten there in time. What you’re proposing today simply could not have been delivered in any useful time frame, and the bizarre thing is that you keep proposing this without the 20/20 vision of hindsight. ETA: By the way, did you read the part of the ARB that talked about the armored vehicle that was badly shot up leaving the compound? “Lightweight, fast moving vehicles” don’t work well if they are stuck in city traffic jams, checkpoints and ambushes. Can there be any doubt that such a vehicle would just be obliterated by RPGs and machine gun fire in the urban canyons? And oh yeah, where are they going to put all the evacuees on one of those things… or are you now proposing that we’d have a whole company of Special Operators and SEVERAL vehicles air-dropped into a hostile city? Your ideas are just fucking nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/115 "2013-11-19T03:43:29Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > And so you’re still proposing that the Special Forces could just parachute that vehicle into a city. Riiiight. We’ve been dropping everything up to tanks from the back of 130’s. I think a motorcycle would be no problem. Note that motorcycles were listed in the cite I gave as part of the inventory for special forces troops. To transit a short distance motorcycles would be the logical choice. > [@Ravenman](#): > > And now you’re proposing that drones and air to ground weapons could have been made available to defend the compound, despite the fact that military leaders have repeatedly said that there were no armed drones within thousands of miles. The air to ground weapons would be deployed by aircraft supporting an operation. Either the same aircraft delivering the SO group or additional aircraft. The surface to surface weapons would be brought in with the group as hand held weapons. > [@Ravenman](#): > > Again, where do you think all this stuff would come from? I think it comes from the inventory of equipment set up to operate the Special Operations group. Where do you think it would come from? Nothing I’ve suggested is particularly high tech. It’s standard military hardware assigned to troops trained to use them. I haven’t suggested anything remotely high tech or complicated beyond a rapid deployment of well trained troops. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/116 "2013-11-19T03:51:57Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > We’ve been dropping everything up to tanks from the back of 130’s. I think a motorcycle would be no problem. Find me some video of dropping tanks, motorcycles, cars, or anything heavy out of a military aircraft into a city. I’ve never seen or heard of such a thing. > [@](#): > > The air to ground weapons would be deployed by aircraft supporting an operation. Either the same aircraft delivering the SO group or additional aircraft. The surface to surface weapons would be brought in with the group as hand held weapons. So now there’s armed escorts with the transport plane? > [@](#): > > I think it comes from the inventory of equipment set up to operate the Special Operations group. Where do you think it would come from? Where is this inventory? For the third time, what is the military base that you suppose has all this stuff? I’m sure Fort Bragg has it, but that is like 10 hours away by plane. > [@](#): > > Nothing I’ve suggested is particularly high tech. It’s standard military hardware assigned to troops trained to use them. I haven’t suggested anything remotely high tech or complicated beyond a rapid deployment of well trained troops. Nothing you’ve suggested remotely takes into account the tyranny of distance, and nothing you’ve said makes it seem like you have even a vague understanding of what it takes to move troops and equipment into a war zone. You might as well say that we should beam down Superman from the Starship Enterprise using a time machine. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/117 "2013-11-19T04:42:52Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Find me some video of dropping tanks, motorcycles, cars, or anything heavy out of a military aircraft into a city. I’ve never seen or heard of such a thing. you have the same access to the internet I have. What is so spectacularly difficult about tossing a motorcycle out the back of a C-130? > [@Ravenman](#): > > So now there’s armed escorts with the transport plane? Where is this inventory? For the third time this is a non-question. Where is the inventory for anything in the military. > [@Ravenman](#): > > Nothing you’ve suggested remotely takes into account the tyranny of distance, and nothing you’ve said makes it seem like you have even a vague understanding of what it takes to move troops and equipment into a war zone. You might as well say that we should beam down Superman from the Starship Enterprise using a time machine. Italy is not on the dark side of the moon. Based on your unending litany of what-if’s the US military would grind to a halt with the first traffic jam or RPG attack. This is not a response to 1000 Russian tanks storming into Germany. It’s a response to a relatively small attack of an embassy and outlying structures. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/118 "2013-11-19T05:18:19Z")
Magiver has no argument. The facts makes Magiver’s Special Operations parachute rescue exercise or any rescue from outside Libya makes no sense whatsoever. The attack began at 9:40 PM. The CIA and Libyan Militia arrived within 45 minutes. Sean Smith was already killed. They did not know where Ambassador Stevens was. Smith/s Body was found at 10:25 pm. Five minutes later Panetta was notified of the attack at 10:35 pm. Twenty-four minutes after Panetta was notified of the attack He was notified that the fighting at the Consulate was over and a search for Ambassador Stevens was underway. No one knew where Steven’s was or what happened to him until 5:15 a.m when a U.S. l Security Office was notified that a westerner was at a Benghazi hospital, possibly Stevens. Magiver’s reinforcements and rescue mission has no one to rescue. Saving Former U.S. Navy SEALs Tyrone Woods and Glenn Dougherty would require taking out a few mortars that made a direct his on the CIA Annex. The mortar attack that killed Woods and Dougherty lasted 11 minutes and it is reported that they were killed around 5:00 am. > [@](#): > > in Benghazi, and four COM (Chief of Mission/embassy) personnel are in the compound safe haven." > > 10:25 p.m. (4:25 p.m. ET): A six-member CIA team arrives from the annex with 40 to 60 members of 17th of February Brigade. The team removes Smith’s body. > > Around 10:30 p.m. (4:30 p.m. ET): Defense Secretary Leon Panetta and his top military adviser learn of the incident. > > 10:54 p.m. (4:54 p.m. ET): An alert from the State Dept. Operations Center: “the firing… in Benghazi has stopped. A response team is on site attempting to locate COM personnel.” > [CBS News | Breaking news, top stories & today's latest headlines](http://m.cbsnews.com/storysynopsis.rbml?&pageType=world&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cbsnews.com%2F8301-202_162-57544719%2Fbenghazi-timeline-how-the-attack-unfolded%2F&catid=57544719&nb_splitPage=16) ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/119 "2013-11-19T05:25:55Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > It’s a response to a relatively small attack of an embassy and outlying structures. That’s right it was an attack so small that there was no need of a response at all. That is unless you knew exactly where the three rockets were located before they were fired at the CIA Annex and killed the former Navy Seals. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466/120 "2013-11-19T05:26:55Z")
first shots fired were at 9:40. The mortar attack started at 4 am. If all of this was a Robert Gates hand wave away then the administration looks pretty foolish sending Rice out with a phony story when all they had to do was come clean. Which they haven’t done yet. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/benghazi-attack-for-dummies/673466.md?page=7)