# Bernard Law: Buh Bye **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 7, 2002, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernard-law-buh-bye/141068 "2002-12-07T02:19:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernard-law-buh-bye/141068/1 "2002-12-07T02:19:55Z")
No…really…buh bye. Take your scowling face ass out of Boston and go work in a soup kitchen for awhile. Your “leadership” of the Boston Archdioces is becoming more and more of a joke every day. And now… [this](http://customwire.ap.org/dynamic/stories/C/CHURCH_ABUSE?SITE=INMUN&SECTION=HOME) > [@](#): > > BOSTON (AP) – Newly released files containing allegations that a priest fathered at least two children has led to renewed criticism against the Boston Archdiocese, including calls for the resignation of Cardinal Bernard Law. > > The outrage stems from handwritten notes in the Rev. James D. Foley’s personnel file, which was among 11,000 documents handed over by the archdiocese to attorneys representing dozens of alleged victims of sex abuse in the Roman Catholic church. > [@](#): > > The Rev. Robert W. Bullock of the Boston Priests Forum said demands for Law’s resignation seem “more widespread and just unrelenting.” > > “I’m hearing from a lot of priests, and the level of outrage is more than ever - the anger is very, very deep,” Bullock said. “He’s become compromised and marginalized and diminished. He’s become a tragic figure.” > > “It’s beyond time for him to leave,” the Rev. Stephen S. Josoma, pastor of Saint Susanna Church in Dedham, told The Boston Globe. “It’s clear now that they knew all along and didn’t do anything, and that they moved people around again and again, despite their denials.” The story of the pedophilia problem among the clergy does have several layers…and **is** a bit more complicated than the usual chorus of church bashers would have us believe. I’ve posted in several threads where I thought a general whitwashing of the church was in progress…so I’m far from an opportunistic clerical basher. I’ve called for Law to step down before…so my opinion hasn’t really changed…just intensified. The pain he is continuing to cause the faithful (and even non-Catholics) in the Boston area and beyond is increasing. (FTR… I don’t mean to suggest that this latest scandal is in any way “worse” than other previous scandals in the Boston Archdiocese…just another reason for Law to go) ---
**Author:** ![cuauhtemoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecb155/32.png) [@cuauhtemoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cuauhtemoc)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernard-law-buh-bye/141068/2 "2002-12-07T02:40:22Z")
I agree. It was debatable before, but he just loses more and more credibility every time something else comes to light. He should do the right thing and step down. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/d26b3c/32.png) [@UncleBill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBill)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernard-law-buh-bye/141068/3 "2002-12-07T02:56:53Z")
No, [Seinfeld]no soup for him![/Seinfeld]. Covering up criminal activity and placing known pedophiles in the congregations where they can cause more lives to be broken? Jail. Just like the criminals he was covering. Priests and Cardinals and Popes who break the law of the land and the law of comman decency should be prosectuted and punished just as if a mechanic had done the same things. The Cloth doesn’t mean shit in the court of law. ---
**Author:** ![happyheathen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5e925/32.png) [@happyheathen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/happyheathen)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernard-law-buh-bye/141068/4 "2002-12-07T03:17:15Z")
WHAT was “debateable”? When? The creep belongs dead. BTW - did the Bishop’s proposed policy of informing the police of allegations survive the Vatican “review” and “suggestions”? ---
**Author:** ![UncleBill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/d26b3c/32.png) [@UncleBill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBill)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernard-law-buh-bye/141068/5 "2002-12-07T03:27:05Z")
Fuck, I wish I could spell when I’m mad. ---
**Author:** ![cuauhtemoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecb155/32.png) [@cuauhtemoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cuauhtemoc)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernard-law-buh-bye/141068/6 "2002-12-07T04:01:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by happyheathen \* > \*\*WHAT was “debateable”? When? \*\* I just meant that I was willing to listen to people defend him up to a point, to see what they had to say in response to the accusations. I no longer am. ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernard-law-buh-bye/141068/7 "2002-12-07T06:39:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by UncleBill \* > No, [Seinfeld]no soup for him![/Seinfeld]. Covering up criminal activity and placing known pedophiles in the congregations where they can cause more lives to be broken? Jail. Which raises an interesting point, from my perspective. I agree with you 100%, FTR (duh, but still). If I knew for sure that my pedophile grandfather knew what he was doing was a sin, and if I knew for sure that he ever confessed a word of it to a priest, then a few of those priests have some 'splainin to do. It’s amusing, to a point, watching priests on the news try to deflect criticism that comes their way. “Well, you know, a lot of those priests are dead, and some of the allegations are not quite clear…”. Yes, okay, we get that. Now answer the fucking question instead of trying to be Teflon Man in a priest’s uniform. ---
**Author:** ![Tee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@Tee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tee)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernard-law-buh-bye/141068/8 "2002-12-07T07:38:29Z")
I’m not inclined to defend Cardinal Law at the moment, just wanted to point out that this priest admitted to _fathering_ two children, not molesting them. He had two kids with one woman, as far as I can tell. ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernard-law-buh-bye/141068/9 "2002-12-07T12:55:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tee \* > \*\*I’m not inclined to defend Cardinal Law at the moment, just wanted to point out that this priest admitted to _fathering_ two children, not molesting them. He had two kids with one woman, as far as I can tell. \*\* Of course I didn’t accuse the priest of molesting any children…so I don’t see the point of your post. Among other things…the priest is accused of a certain amount of negligence in the death of one of the women… > [@](#): > > The papers also say that when the mother of the children collapsed from an apparent drug overdose, Foley got dressed, left and returned an undetermined time later before calling 911. Other reports I have read indicate that the woman has had a frontal lobotomy…had serious mental problems. We’re not talking about a “simple” matter of a priest violating vows of celibacy. And…Law **knew** about it. As a matter of fact…until Thursday, the priest still was in active ministry. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/d26b3c/32.png) [@UncleBill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBill)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernard-law-buh-bye/141068/10 "2002-12-07T15:31:23Z")
My position on prosecuting this sick fuck did not start with this revelation, which includes the possibility of drug overdosing. ---
**Author:** ![Tee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@Tee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tee)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernard-law-buh-bye/141068/11 "2002-12-07T16:46:28Z")
> [@](#): > > We’re not talking about a “simple” matter of a priest violating vows of celibacy. Essentially, yes we are. You people in Davenport and Miami may have all the answers, but I don’t yet, it looks like a collective knee-jerk to me until someone explains how a woman with a frontal lobotomy was raising (at least) two kids. Or the ‘calling 911’ suggestion…didn’t know you could do that in 1970. Hmmmm… ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernard-law-buh-bye/141068/12 "2002-12-07T17:47:44Z")
**tee** , are you asserting that calling for help was impossible prior to the institution of 911? If not, please don’t be ingenuous. ---
**Author:** ![SuaSponte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SuaSponte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuaSponte)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernard-law-buh-bye/141068/13 "2002-12-07T18:42:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by UncleBill \* > \*\*No, [Seinfeld]no soup for him![/Seinfeld]. Covering up criminal activity and placing known pedophiles in the congregations where they can cause more lives to be broken? Jail. Just like the criminals he was covering. Priests and Cardinals and Popes who break the law of the land and the law of comman decency should be prosectuted and punished just as if a mechanic had done the same things. > > The Cloth doesn’t mean shit in the court of law. \*\* [overly pendantic lawyer hat ON] While certainly immoral, in most instances there is no obligation to report crimes. Your accusation that Law covered up crimes is technically incorrect - for a cover-up to occur (i.e. obstruction of justice), there must be an ongoing criminal investigation that you are obstructing. So it is unlikely that Law broke any criminal laws. [overly pendantic lawyer hat OFF] [Pitizen hat ON] Draw and quarter the little fuck. [Pitizen hat OFF] Sua ---
**Author:** ![Tee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@Tee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tee)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernard-law-buh-bye/141068/14 "2002-12-07T19:55:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Qadgop the Mercotan \* > \*\ ***tee** , are you asserting that calling for help was impossible prior to the institution of 911? If not, please don’t be ingenuous. \*\* no…just wondering about the certainty (also stated in the local paper) that calling 911 is what he should’ve done, and that the DA will look into the circumstances surrounding that. After all, if he did father two children while in the priesthood, he’s capable of just about anything else…perhaps even buying her the drugs…maybe offing her to keep her quiet? please. I was born and raised Catholic but haven’t been a practicing Catholic for years, if it were up to me he could have had _both_ the family and the priesthood, no problem. I’m sorry that the archdiocese can’t distinguish between different kinds of sexual improprieties at this stage in the game, as in pedophilia versus consentual relationships…doesn’t matter, the main concern is ‘don’t bring scandal upon us.’ By all accounts he was respected in the community, loved by his (mostly Hispanic) parish (ethnic parishes tend to be ignored by the archdiocese btw) and was bipolar, not diagnosed until the mid-90s or so, which may or may not have had anything to do with his leading a double life. I’ll reserve judgement on his alleged criminal activities until I see proof of something. My estimation of Law went even lower because of this issue, but probably not for the same reasons as everyone else. Oh well. ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernard-law-buh-bye/141068/15 "2002-12-07T20:41:22Z")
IIRC, the sort of double life this looks like would not be caused by bipolarity (which has to do with depression and mania) but by some sort of DID (known then possibly as MPD); Dissociative Identity Disorder. One girl I knew didn’t smoke and was from England, and her alter was a guy from Iowa, a bit younger, who smoked and went to UCLA. Interesting situations arose when Amy left and Jordan came in before or during class. I could literally say “Amy’s not feeling like herself today”. Because she wasn’t. She was Jordan, who was male except for his genes and … well,the manifestation of said genes, so to speak. Or did I misunderstand your phrase “and was bipolar, not diagnosed until the mid-90s or so, which may or may not have had anything to do with his leading a double life.”? I took it to mean that his manic episodes dictated a certain behavior of which his depressed times had no knowledge unless he were told by someone (or something) else. ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernard-law-buh-bye/141068/16 "2002-12-07T21:31:28Z")
And to echo what Sua said. My OP is certainly **not** calling for the criminal prosecution of Law. As others have said in previous threads (maybe Bricker?)…it’s not really evident that he has broken existing local law…(I am not a land shark, yadda yadda ). The guy has lost any shred of credibility as a shepherd for his diocese. This latest episode is just one of many examples. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/d26b3c/32.png) [@UncleBill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBill)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernard-law-buh-bye/141068/17 "2002-12-07T22:21:09Z")
If he can’t be prosecuted for shuffling alterboy rapists into the arms of as-of-then unfucked alterboys, can I at least recommend him getting the living shit kicked out of him on a regular basis? And honestly, if I had personal knowledge of a criminal rapist, and I was his boss, and I moved him to another area, he rapes again, I move him again, he rapes again, ad infinitum, I am not criminally liable for those later rapes? If that is true, that _ **SUCKS!** _ Complicity, at least? And again, my anger toward Law has little to do with this latest thing. ---
**Author:** ![Briny\_Deep](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/briny_deep/32/17188_2.png) [@Briny\_Deep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Briny_Deep)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernard-law-buh-bye/141068/18 "2002-12-07T22:21:55Z")
Quick question (and I have no dog in this fight): Is everyone agreed that if a priest is found to have fathered children (or otherwise proven to have had sex / an inappropriate relationship with / another person) - then that priest must be permanently barred from serving with parishioners? Must he be defrocked? Not defending the priest, or Law - but is there consensus that this sort of crime MUST be punished by un-priesting the priest, for ever and for all time? ---
**Author:** ![Briny\_Deep](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/briny_deep/32/17188_2.png) [@Briny\_Deep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Briny_Deep)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernard-law-buh-bye/141068/19 "2002-12-07T22:26:55Z")
For the purposes of my question, if anyone answers it: Forget the drugs, the mental incapacity, the delayed call for help, the possible lobotomy. THIS priest, it seems to me, is clearly an asshole. But what if the situation had been “cleaner” - “Just” a case of forbidden sex, and no other complications? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernard-law-buh-bye/141068/20 "2002-12-07T22:57:55Z")
> [@](#): > > Is everyone agreed that if a priest is found to have fathered children (or otherwise proven to have had sex / an inappropriate relationship with / another person) - then that priest must be permanently barred from serving with parishioners? Must he be defrocked? Are you asking the opinion of the board or the practice of the church? The practice of the church would not require that a priest who engaged in sexual activities _with an adult of normal competence_ be defrocked. Discipline would probably be up to the bishop (which is how the church has gotten into the current situation with bishops deciding to take no action regarding pedophiles). There are _now_ steps being taken to establish specific penalties when a priest misuses his position to engage in sexual activity with a child (and, I hope, with a non-competent adult), but I have not heard (yet) of similar actions being considered for any of the host of other wrongs a priest might commit. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernard-law-buh-bye/141068.md?page=2)