# Bernard Law: Buh Bye **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 7, 2002, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernard-law-buh-bye/141068 "2002-12-07T02:19:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernard-law-buh-bye/141068/21 "2002-12-07T23:03:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by UncleBill \* > \*\*No, [Seinfeld]no soup for him![/Seinfeld]. Covering up criminal activity and placing known pedophiles in the congregations where they can cause more lives to be broken? Jail. Just like the criminals he was covering. Priests and Cardinals and Popes who break the law of the land and the law of comman decency should be prosectuted and punished just as if a mechanic had done the same things. > > The Cloth doesn’t mean shit in the court of law. \*\* Great! Er… perhaps you can provide a cite for precisely what law you allege he violated, though? Thanks. -Rick ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernard-law-buh-bye/141068/22 "2002-12-07T23:07:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by UncleBill \* > \*\*If he can’t be prosecuted for shuffling alterboy rapists into the arms of as-of-then unfucked alterboys, can I at least recommend him getting the living shit kicked out of him on a regular basis? > > And honestly, if I had personal knowledge of a criminal rapist, and I was his boss, and I moved him to another area, he rapes again, I move him again, he rapes again, ad infinitum, I am not criminally liable for those later rapes? If that is true, that _ **SUCKS!** _ Complicity, at least? > > And again, my anger toward Law has little to do with this latest thing. \*\* If you had an agreement with your employee that he would rape and continue to rape, you’d be guilty of conspiracy. If you merely did nothing, it may give rise to civil liability, but there’s generally no law requiring you to report the crimes of others, even if they work for you. - Rick ---
**Author:** ![Briny\_Deep](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/briny_deep/32/17188_2.png) [@Briny\_Deep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Briny_Deep)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernard-law-buh-bye/141068/23 "2002-12-07T23:18:22Z")
Thanks **tom~** ; I think I’m asking both questions. I guess “zero tolerance” is the issue on the table for the RCC right now; knowing that priests are all sinners like the rest of us, I’m wondering where the line shall/should be drawn. You can’t defrock them all for any sin, of course - you’d have none left. You can’t require them to lead an entirely sinless life; it’s impossible. The tone of these threads on the SDMB indicates to me that a majority of posters have a zero-tolerance attitude when it comes to pedophilia; I might agree. Is there also a zero-tolerance attitude (on the Boards) towards priestly sexual sins of all types? ---
**Author:** ![UncleBill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/d26b3c/32.png) [@UncleBill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBill)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernard-law-buh-bye/141068/24 "2002-12-07T23:28:34Z")
Damn. Thanks for the legalese corrections. And for my cite, I’d choose common decency and care for humanity (no link). And I stand by the “living shit kicked out of him on a regular basis” recommendation. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernard-law-buh-bye/141068/25 "2002-12-07T23:38:35Z")
I don’t DARE defend this sort of behavior, I find it to be morally and ethically reprehensible, and it’s one of the reasons that I’m no longer a practicing Catholic. However, I have to ask this, since it’s been nagging at me for a while: What is this hard-on for Catholics? You mean to tell me that nowhere but in the Catholic Church, and Boston to boot, are these abuses taking place? I sincerely doubt it. I would not be surprised to find that there is stuff like this going on with other denominations and it’s being hushed up due to embarassment. People are people, and the clergy is no different. They have failings in life, the same as everyone else (although in this case, much worse than usual). I’m not posting this to deflect criticism, but man, I’m still a Catholic, albeit a bit lapsed, but enough of one to want to defend my Church. Those guys should be somehow punished. But everyone seems to think that this reflects poorly upon all clergy, who I think are some of the most noble, devoted people I’ve ever met, and especially against the Catholic clergy. I hope you understand where I’m coming from. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2002, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernard-law-buh-bye/141068/26 "2002-12-08T01:26:50Z")
**airman** , I think one thing that tends to make the Catholic church stand out in this area is its hierarchical structure and the complete lack of laity oversight. Of course similar abuses happen in many other faiths, perhaps with equal frequency. But what you don’t see as blatantly or as often is a monolithic power structure stepping in to shuffle the problem elsewhere, to avoid scandal. In the protestant denominations, the laity tends to rise up, and toss problem clergy out, with or without consent of any denominational officials, and with or without a lot of fanfare. I see this not as singling out the catholic church, but as a logical consequence of having such a large and frankly rigid hierarchy. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2002, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernard-law-buh-bye/141068/27 "2002-12-08T04:14:08Z")
I’ll accept that. I’ll agree that it’s really unfortunate that your average Catholic has no control over matters such as these. As I said before, that is one reason why Catholicism as practiced currently is not suitable to me. Once was the day when I gave some serious thought to entering the seminary. Now when I hear the news I turn it off in disgust. My faith, though, hasn’t changed, and my beliefs have adapted to the times and the circumstances in which we live, so I’m sure you’ll understand why I felt like I had to raise some sort of protest. What bothers me, though, is that it’s headline news NOW. Where was the outrage ten years ago? I understand that it’s a big deal, but this is old news. These abuses have been happening for essentially ever, and they never got the attention they have now. What I’m getting at here is that it seems like EVERYTHING is coming out now, in a neverending stream of sordid occurrences. It almost seems to me that the press is intent upon destroying the Church by bombing us all at once with this. You see why I’m frustrated here? ---
**Author:** ![UncleBill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/d26b3c/32.png) [@UncleBill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBill)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2002, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernard-law-buh-bye/141068/28 "2002-12-08T04:43:16Z")
The abuses were certainly made public ten years ago, but the official coverups continued even after that. I, too, was raised Catholic, and left for a number of reasons. My faith has not differed much from the base of the teachings of the Church (a lot less Marionist, and less Saint worship, for sure). It wasn’t the faith I have a problem with, it was the rules set by the men who ruled without debate. I for one am not out for the clergy in general, not even close. But specific clergy who commit criminal atrocities against those who have placed their trust in them deserve the full punishment under law, and higher ranking officials who have hidden those crimes and placed these sick fucks in new unwitting congregations deserve to be punished, too, by whatever means under the law, or by being cast out of proper society. The Roman Catholic Church and its strict and unquestionable power had its role in history, I am sure. IIRC, it was in the last 30 or 40 years that the Vatican admitted the earth was not flat. That says a lot. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2002, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernard-law-buh-bye/141068/29 "2002-12-08T04:59:40Z")
Um, **UncleBill** , I know it’s just the Pit and you’re just generalizing, but Catholics don’t worship Saints. I only nitpick because of a few resident anti-Catholics who like to jump on that point. Other than that, the other day my mother was watching The View, and Bill O’Reilly was on. I can’t stand the guy, but I had to agree with him when he said that Law should be outta there. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/d26b3c/32.png) [@UncleBill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBill)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2002, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernard-law-buh-bye/141068/30 "2002-12-08T05:02:43Z")
Good point, it’s been a while. I probably meant praying to Saints to intercede on my behalf, not worship. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2002, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernard-law-buh-bye/141068/31 "2002-12-08T05:15:21Z")
> [@](#): > > Where was the outrage ten years ago? I understand that it’s a big deal, but this is old news. Actually, these cases were making the news between 15 and 10 years ago. At that time the Council of Bishops met and setup guidelines to handle such cases. Once it _appeared_ the the church was going to act rsponsibly, the news crews left the church alone, leaving the commentary to the stand-up commedians. The problem was that the NCCB does not have the power to enforce their collective agreements and several bishops went on ignoring (and worse, hiding) the problem until the Geoghan trial blew up in their face. There are 270 (or so) diocese in the U.S. and it appears (based on nothing better than my following the reports and noting where I heard them) that the majority of the bishops actually took the appropriate steps following the recommendations that were published between 1989 and 1993. On the other hand, we have Boston where it seems that Law went out of his way to ignore the NCCB recommendations and we certainly have several other diocese where the bishops were either junior versions of Law or else seriously lax. There is no news in reporting the places where the bishops acted appropriately, so we see constant references to the several diocese where there are significant problems and the appearance is that the whole church is having the same problems. ---
**Author:** ![amarinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3be4f8/32.png) [@amarinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarinth)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2002, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernard-law-buh-bye/141068/32 "2002-12-08T06:05:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tomndebb \* > \*\*The practice of the church would not require that a priest who engaged in sexual activities _with an adult of normal competence_ be defrocked. Discipline would probably be up to the bishop \*\* What about when it results in children Who need to be fed, clothed, raised, etc.? Does the church provide for their needs? (after all, their father has taken a vow of poverty, so he can’t.) ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2002, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernard-law-buh-bye/141068/33 "2002-12-08T13:28:41Z")
The calls for Law to hit the road are [increasing](http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/Northeast/12/08/church.abuse.ap/) ---
**Author:** ![UncleBill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/d26b3c/32.png) [@UncleBill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBill)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2002, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernard-law-buh-bye/141068/34 "2002-12-08T17:13:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by beagledave \* > \*\*The calls for Law to hit the road are [increasing](http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/Northeast/12/08/church.abuse.ap/) \*\* Would that be hitting facefirst? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2002, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernard-law-buh-bye/141068/35 "2002-12-08T18:53:20Z")
> [@](#): > > after all, their father has taken a vow of poverty, so he can’t This is only true if the priest is a member of a religious order. If the priest reports directly to the bishop, he makes about $16,000 a year (with free housing). Again, the specific response is up to the bishop. If the bishop defrocks the priest, I suppose the priest can then go out and get a regular job to support his family (although the skill sets and training priests get are not easily converted to lay jobs unless he has already been trained as a teacher or something). If the bishop keeps him on as a priest, he gets his salary, such as it is. ---
**Author:** ![Tee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@Tee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tee)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2002, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernard-law-buh-bye/141068/36 "2002-12-08T19:05:14Z")
> [@](#): > > CNN: The latest personnel papers, part of a huge collection of church files that victims’ lawyers pried from the archdiocese, document a priest beating his housekeeper and threatening alleged sex abuse victims, another trading cocaine for sex, and a third claiming to be the second coming of Christ in order to entice teenagers training to be nuns into having sex. > > Later in the week, other papers disclosed that a priest fathered at least two children, and apparently failed to immediately get medical help for the mother of their children when she overdosed. per CNN this stuff has sparked the renewed protests…I disagree that it’s the sole cause. I was wondering about it because after all the talk about pedophilia I seriously doubted that people (my Grandma for instance) would be taking to the streets over a priest fathering children on the side and a delayed 911 call. So there’s a few more lurid charges there…plus, what is _not_ mentioned on CNN is that Law is prohibiting dissatisfied members of the clergy from having meetings…prohibiting irate laypeople from meeting…he’s cracking down on opposition even now. From today’s Globe: > [@](#): > > The same day the news broke that Cardinal Bernard Law was barring archdiocesan meetings from taking place at Our Lady Help of Christians Church in Newton, the phone started ringing in the Rev. Walter H. Cuenin’s office. > > Three times that day, Protestant ministers called, offering their churches for use as needed. > > Cuenin didn’t need the help. The outspoken pastor, who believes he is being punished for his efforts to organize unhappy priests, decided that the new policy didn’t apply to planned gatherings of dozens of local clerics at his parish hall. But the offers last week were indicative of a dramatic but unheralded development in Catholic-Protestant relations this year. I think that gives a better idea of what the current situation is like. The press would always rather report the scandals, but they are leaving out half the story too. ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2002, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernard-law-buh-bye/141068/37 "2002-12-08T19:31:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tee \* > \*\* From today’s Globe:… > > I think that gives a better idea of what the current situation is like. The press would always rather report the scandals, but they are leaving out half the story too. \*\* Umm by **“the press”** …do you include the Globe? It’s not real surprising that a national media outlet like CNN does not supply as many details about the case as local media. There are **many** facets to ths story…Boston based Ellen Goodman covers some of them [here](http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/342/oped/A_new_chapter_in_church_tale+.shtml) > [@](#): > > Then Tuesday, a Boston court released another 2,200 pages of church documents as lurid as anything imagined in a 19th-century anti-papist novel. In the recorded allegations, there’s the saga of one priest who beat his housekeeper and had a long affair with a woman. There’s another - so hooked on cocaine he was nicknamed ‘‘the blow king of Malden’’ - who admitted sex with a teenager as well as with other men. > > Most bizarre of all is Robert V. Meffan, a priest who enticed teenage girls preparing to become nuns into sex acts by claiming to be ‘‘the second coming of Christ.’’ A 73-year-old now living out a comfortable retirement with his depraved delusion intact, he told a Boston Globe reporter, ‘‘What I was trying to show them is that Christ is human … I felt that by having this little bit of intimacy with them that this is what it would be like with Christ.’’ Another Boston Globe editorial [here](http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/340/oped/Cardinal_Law_s_bankrupt_leadership+.shtml) > [@](#): > > At least 22 priests, by the Globe’s count, continued working on Law’s watch despite existing allegations, despite many facts, despite even admissions of guilt. Despite allegations that the Rev. Robert Meffan abused teenage girls, Meffan, upon his retirement, received from Law a letter saying, ‘‘We are truly grateful for your priestly care and ministry.’’ > > Meffan now admits that he asked girls to engage in letting him fondle their breasts and engage in kissing of genitals ‘‘to get them to love Christ even more intimately and even more closely.’’ Law shuffled Meffan to a new parish in 1985 even though Bishop John D’Arcy wrote to Law that Meffan was so unbalanced that he ‘‘could really harm us.’’ The “scandals” serve to highlight the fact that Bernard law is not fit to lead the faithful of his diocese. End of story. ---
**Author:** ![Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tapioca_Dextrin)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2002, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernard-law-buh-bye/141068/38 "2002-12-08T21:02:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Airman Doors, USAF \* > \*\* I’ll agree that it’s really unfortunate that your average Catholic has no control over matters such as these. > \*\* You’re absolutely right. **But** the average catholic priest does and did know (to some extent) what was going on. What did they do? Nothing. Priests and bishops decided that the institution of the church was more important than the God they were supposed to be worshipping. That to me is what makes it so terrible. ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernard-law-buh-bye/141068/39 "2002-12-13T13:23:23Z")
[Finally](http://www.boston.com/news/daily/13/law_resigns.htm). Now begins the difficult work ahead. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernard-law-buh-bye/141068/40 "2002-12-13T14:37:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by UncleBill \* > \*\* IIRC, it was in the last 30 or 40 years that the Vatican admitted the earth was not flat. \*\* Um… the Church has taught the Earth is round since the Middle Ages; recognized heliocentricity as finally proven around 1820; accepted Evolution as compatible with Church teachings around 1950 (after being hands-off neutral on it since c. 1900). OTOH the “blood libel” against the Jews was rejected only in in 1964, Galileo was not fully cleared until the 1980s and Natural Selection was recognized as being as close to proven as science can get in the 1990s So it’s glacially slow, but not THAT glacially slow… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernard-law-buh-bye/141068.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernard-law-buh-bye/141068.md?page=3)