# Bernie Withdraws **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [April 8, 2020, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernie-withdraws/851349 "2020-04-08T15:27:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2020, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernie-withdraws/851349/161 "2020-04-09T10:15:32Z")
On another subject, Hillary would be a lousy VP pick. The problem is that a lot of people really hate her, including a lot of Bernie supporters whose votes we need. ---
**Author:** ![dalej42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@dalej42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalej42)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2020, 10:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernie-withdraws/851349/162 "2020-04-09T10:23:38Z")
> [@Manwich](#): > > Biden supporters please get cracking with the reasons why Biden is good. > > The lesser of two evils stuff is not going to cut it. Let’s discuss it here: [https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=22238404#post22238404](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=22238404#post22238404) ---
**Author:** ![dalej42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@dalej42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalej42)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2020, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernie-withdraws/851349/163 "2020-04-09T10:27:10Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > On another subject, Hillary would be a lousy VP pick. The problem is that a lot of people really hate her, including a lot of Bernie supporters whose votes we need. Hillary Clinton isn’t going to be VP. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2020, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernie-withdraws/851349/164 "2020-04-09T10:48:03Z")
> [@Lamoral](#): > > John Bonham has been described as “playing like he never knew what was going to happen next, like he was teetering on the edge of a cliff.” I’ve also heard this to describe the guitar solo in Heartbreaker. In normal times, this would hurt Biden. It still might, but less so than if he weren’t running against someone who talks like a grade schooler. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2020, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernie-withdraws/851349/165 "2020-04-09T10:56:53Z")
> [@dalej42](#): > > Hillary Clinton isn’t going to be VP. I’m aware of that. Do you have anything to contribute to whether she’d be a good or bad VP pick, completely aside from the unlikelihood that it would happen? ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2020, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernie-withdraws/851349/166 "2020-04-09T11:06:41Z")
> [@Manwich](#): > > Biden supporters please get cracking with the reasons why Biden is good. > > The lesser of two evils stuff is not going to cut it. It depends on how evil and the gulf in between the two evils. In this case I do believe it does cut it. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2020, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernie-withdraws/851349/167 "2020-04-09T11:43:59Z")
> [@Manwich](#): > > Biden supporters please get cracking with the reasons why Biden is good. > > The lesser of two evils stuff is not going to cut it. It absolutely does “cut it.” If I have to choose between chemotherapy and a slow agonizing death from colon cancer, I’m not gonna demand that my doctor explain why chemotherapy is a lot of fun, and I’m not going to decide to treat myself with cocaine and blowjobs instead of chemotherapy. We don’t have a choice between a great candidate and a terrible candidate. The chance of victory going to someone that a leftist like me will like is, to ten decimal places, 0%. I gotta choose to push the trolley to Bidenville or Trumptown. It ain’t going anywhere else. If I decide not to push it toward the lesser of two evils, I’m complicit in the evils of Trumptown when it arrives there. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2020, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernie-withdraws/851349/168 "2020-04-09T11:52:51Z")
> [@Manwich](#): > > Biden supporters please get cracking with the reasons why Biden is good. > > The lesser of two evils stuff is not going to cut it. If Trump wins, he’ll probably get to replace RBG and maybe Breyer on SCOTUS. Biden would nominate decent judges, rather than corporate-friendly fanatics and shills. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2020, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernie-withdraws/851349/169 "2020-04-09T12:40:05Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > In wake of Bernie dropping out, [Jill Stein is now calling upon progressives to leave the Democratic Party.](https://twitter.com/DrJillStein/status/1247921024080973827?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1247921024080973827%7Ctwgr%5E393535353b636f6e74726f6c&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theblaze.com%2Fres%2Fcommunity%2Ftwitter_embed%2F%3Fiframe_id%3Dtwitter-embed-1247921024080973827%26created_ts%3D1586362532.0%26screen_name%3DDrJillStein%26text%3DBernie%2BSanders%2Bran%2Ba%2Bgood%2Brace.%2BNow%2Bit%2527s%2Bclearer%2Bthan%2Bever%253A%2Bestablishment%2BDems%2527%2Btop%2Bpriority%2Bis%2Bsabotaging%2Bprogress%25E2%2580%25A6%2Bhttps%253A%252F%252Ft.co%252FHLILvnB3Lk%26id%3D1247921024080973827%26name%3DDr.%2BJill%2BStein%25F0%259F%258C%25BB) I honestly don’t understand if she is naive or a Russian asset. Probably both. Pretty sad she is this dumb. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2020, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernie-withdraws/851349/170 "2020-04-09T12:51:07Z")
Whether Jill Stein is sincere and just really, really dumb, or malevolent (i.e. a Russian/Republican plant), she should be mocked and ignored. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2020, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernie-withdraws/851349/171 "2020-04-09T12:59:04Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > It absolutely does “cut it.” If I have to choose between chemotherapy and a slow agonizing death from colon cancer, I’m not gonna demand that my doctor explain why chemotherapy is a lot of fun, and I’m not going to decide to treat myself with cocaine and blowjobs instead of chemotherapy. > > We don’t have a choice between a great candidate and a terrible candidate. The chance of victory going to someone that a leftist like me will like is, to ten decimal places, 0%. > > I gotta choose to push the trolley to Bidenville or Trumptown. It ain’t going anywhere else. If I decide not to push it toward the lesser of two evils, I’m complicit in the evils of Trumptown when it arrives there. for most people it does cut it, but you need to win. Hillary Clinton won 66 million votes. Fine and good, but she needed an additional 80,000 in the northern midwest to win the election. Biden to his credit doesn’t seem to scare people the way Hillary did. So I hope Biden doesn’t lose rural whites by as large a margin as Hillary did (but Biden will still lose them). But Democrats need to look for ways to increase turnout among young people, blacks and liberals, especially in the midwest states of MN, MI, WI, PA. Running on ‘at least our candidate isn’t Trump’ didn’t get enough votes to compensate for the unfairness of the electoral college. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2020, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernie-withdraws/851349/172 "2020-04-09T13:21:01Z")
Here are eight key swing states, showing ev’s and an average of recent polls:NV 6 Biden+4 WI 10 Biden+3 MI 16 Biden+3 NC15 Biden+2 AZ 11 Biden+2 FL 29 Biden+1 PA 20 Trump+2 NH 4 Trump+2If Biden gets the first four on this list, he’ll have 269 ev’s total (if my arithmetic is correct), not _quite_ enough. > [@AHunter3](#): > > If you don’t live in a swing state, you can vote Green and not be “helping Trump”. **Mr. Drains** lives in North Carolina (NC) allegedly. Play around with the above numbers and see that _ **NC is suddenly a very key swing state** _. Biden can lose PA and FL and AZ and still win the White House with NC and NH! ```auto As I read this thread, I kept thinking of the iconic line at the end of the great Jack Nicholson movie: "Forget it Jake; it's America." ``` ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2020, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernie-withdraws/851349/173 "2020-04-09T13:26:51Z")
I’m surprised NC is leaning more to the left than PA. In 2012 Obama won PA by 5.4% and lost NC by 2%. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2020, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernie-withdraws/851349/174 "2020-04-09T13:36:53Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > for most people it does cut it, but you need to win. Hillary Clinton won 66 million votes. Fine and good, but she needed an additional 80,000 in the northern midwest to win the election. > > Biden to his credit doesn’t seem to scare people the way Hillary did. So I hope Biden doesn’t lose rural whites by as large a margin as Hillary did (but Biden will still lose them). But Democrats need to look for ways to increase turnout among young people, blacks and liberals, especially in the midwest states of MN, MI, WI, PA. > > Running on ‘at least our candidate isn’t Trump’ didn’t get enough votes to compensate for the unfairness of the electoral college. I’m not entirely sure what you’re getting at here. You seem to be trying to rebut my argument by telling me that my argument won’t persuade 100% of the people out there. Well…_no_. It _won’t_. But that’s not a refutation of the argument’s merits, but is rather a meta-observation about how persuading people works. Of course nobody, including me, is suggesting that this one single point will suffice for winning the 2020 presidential election. I didn’t intend to offer it as a magic bullet. I was just offering it to rebut one specific argument against voting for Biden. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2020, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernie-withdraws/851349/175 "2020-04-09T13:53:44Z")
> [@Manwich](#): > > Biden supporters please get cracking with the reasons why Biden is good. > > The lesser of two evils stuff is not going to cut it. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > It absolutely does “cut it.” If I have to choose between chemotherapy and a slow agonizing death from colon cancer, I’m not gonna demand that my doctor explain why chemotherapy is a lot of fun, and I’m not going to decide to treat myself with cocaine and blowjobs instead of chemotherapy. > > We don’t have a choice between a great candidate and a terrible candidate. The chance of victory going to someone that a leftist like me will like is, to ten decimal places, 0%. > > I gotta choose to push the trolley to Bidenville or Trumptown. It ain’t going anywhere else. If I decide not to push it toward the lesser of two evils, I’m complicit in the evils of Trumptown when it arrives there. Yes, yes, a thousand times yes! “The lesser of two evils” is a cop-out framing. It implies that there is no discernible difference in outcome between choices. If you truly believe that a Biden presidency is just as bad as a Trump presidency, then I doubt anything anyone can say will convince you otherwise. But, if you don’t think that they are equally awful, then it’s not a “lesser of two evils” question. It’s simply deciding which is the better option for president. No candidate is perfect. No candidate will solve all the problems for every constituent. I ask you, **Manwich** : tell me why I should prefer at Trump presidency as opposed to a Biden presidency? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2020, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernie-withdraws/851349/176 "2020-04-09T14:01:03Z")
I’ll throw this quote out as long as it’s needed: > [@Rebecca Solnit](#): > > I think of voting as a chess move, not a valentine. It’s just a little part of the picture of how we make the world. Biden doesn’t earn your vote. I didn’t vote for Warren in the primary because I thought she was a good person. Your vote doesn’t have little hearts on it; nor is it a trophy that you award your favorite player. Your vote is an action you can take to nudge the world in a particular direction. You can vote for someone you find loathsome, if you think that by doing so, more people will be able to feed their children healthy food. You can vote for a creepy handsy uncle if he’s less likely to put people in cages for fleeing injustice. No valentines. Play chess. Edit: **Manwich** , I encourage you to [read Solnit’s brilliant article](https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/the-2000-election-unleashed-disaster-on-the-world-we-cant-let-that-happen-again-in-2016/). ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2020, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernie-withdraws/851349/177 "2020-04-09T14:16:19Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I’m not entirely sure what you’re getting at here. You seem to be trying to rebut my argument by telling me that my argument won’t persuade 100% of the people out there. > > Well…_no_. It _won’t_. But that’s not a refutation of the argument’s merits, but is rather a meta-observation about how persuading people works. > > Of course nobody, including me, is suggesting that this one single point will suffice for winning the 2020 presidential election. I didn’t intend to offer it as a magic bullet. I was just offering it to rebut one specific argument against voting for Biden. My point is we tried in 2016 to make ‘at least the candidate isn’t Trump’ as the main motivator for why people should vote. It didn’t win. Yes Hillary got 66 million votes, but she needed 67 million. The question is how do democrats get that final 1-2 million votes they need to win? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2020, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernie-withdraws/851349/178 "2020-04-09T14:25:03Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > My point is we tried in 2016 to make ‘at least the candidate isn’t Trump’ as the main motivator for why people should vote. It didn’t win. Yes Hillary got 66 million votes, but she needed 67 million. > > The question is how do democrats get that final 1-2 million votes they need to win? In 2016 a lot of people thought Donald was some affable showman who would just shake things up. Republicans thought they just needed a guy with enough working digits to sign whatever tax cuts they sent his way. There was a lot of “why not, what do we have to lose?” in the minds of voters. Now 3+ years in, we can see that we elected a psychopathic criminal fascist grifter. It isn’t “what do we have to lose?” any more, it’s “how the fuck can we afford four more years of this?” The horrors of voting for Donald were quite abstract in 2016, they’re very much concrete in 2020. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2020, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernie-withdraws/851349/179 "2020-04-09T14:29:30Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > My point is we tried in 2016 to make ‘at least the candidate isn’t Trump’ as the main motivator for why people should vote. Who’s “we”? No we didn’t. It was one argument among very many, as it is here. It’s totally false to claim that this was the main motivator, or to lay responsibility for Clinton’s loss on this claim. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2020, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernie-withdraws/851349/180 "2020-04-09T14:41:00Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > I’m surprised NC is leaning more to the left than PA. In 2012 Obama won PA by 5.4% and lost NC by 2%. Yes, this surprised me also. [Three polls from early March show Biden](https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/north-carolina/) as +2, +3 or +4 in North Carolina; while [on about the same dates](https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/pennsylvania/) Biden was +6, -2, +0 or +5 in Pennsylvania. _But Trump is +2 or +2 in the very recent Pennsylvania polls._ So part of the difference is that NC hasn’t been polled since Trump had his big Covid-19 boost. :smack: Another part of the explanation: Both Pennsylvania and North Carolina had significant voter suppression programs in 2016. Perhaps the NC program was better at targeting D voters specifically. Since then NC has replaced its R Governor with a D, so the 2020 election should be fairer. Bottom line — My earlier posts were misguided: It looks like NC may be an easier win for the Ds than Pennsylvania! But NC has 5 fewer ev’s than PA, so that leads to a 269-269 electoral college tie in the typical scenario. Tiny New Hampshire suddenly looks _very_ important! ETA: But let’s not get our hopes up. **Mr. Drains** plans to give NC to Trump out of spite. :eek: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernie-withdraws/851349.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernie-withdraws/851349.md?page=10)