# Bernie's Soviet "honeymoon" and trips to Nicaragua and Cuba are disqualifying. **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [February 5, 2016, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209 "2016-02-05T06:15:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2016, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/261 "2016-02-09T22:58:10Z")
Are we really picking on people for how they pronounce the first vowel in Moslem? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2016, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/262 "2016-02-09T23:02:07Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > OK, you’re off the deep end. The modern French Republic has faced worse existential threats _in living memory._ If you are actually comparing the current situation to Nazi occupation in order to try to minimize the current situation, it isn’t me who is off the deep end. France is currently under a state of emergency, only the second time since WWII that this has happened. The attacks in Paris also marked the first time since WWII that a curfew has been imposed in Paris. If you have to wait until every last citizen has either bled out or been confined to their home before you are willing to acknowledge an existential threat, then all you have done is ruined the usefulness of the phrase, you haven’t done anything to convince anyone that a clueless old commie grandpa has the capacity to deal effectively or realistically with the situation. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2016, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/263 "2016-02-09T23:08:25Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > So maybe there’s no difference between their approach to ISIS. Now what? The difference is that Sanders oh so naively thinks that there is reserve capacity in our the fight against ISIS, in the form of our ally’s militaries that are just waiting for him to come to power and “work with them”. While Clinton is aware of the limitations inherent in this effort, and knows first hand that it is an integral part of our strategy already. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2016, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/264 "2016-02-09T23:10:15Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > If you have to wait until every last citizen has either bled out or been confined to their home before you are willing to acknowledge an existential threat, then all you have done is ruined the usefulness of the phrase No you are ruining the use of the phrase. ISIS so far has carried out attacks on foreign soil with Ak 47’s. They don’t have WMD, they don’t have nuclear weapons, they don’t have fighter jets, or aircraft carriers. They are a threat to civil liberties, they are not an existential threat. War with nuclear armed powers like Russia or China is an existential threat to the US. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2016, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/265 "2016-02-09T23:10:54Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > If you are actually comparing the current situation to Nazi occupation in order to try to minimize the current situation, it isn’t me who is off the deep end. [France faced a worse existential threat in 1968.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_1968_events_in_France) It came close to revolution and ended up having to replace the Fourth Republic with the Fifth. No foreign threats were involved. And the Algerian independence movement **seemed** like an existential threat to many French in the 1950s-60s. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2016, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/266 "2016-02-09T23:12:21Z")
Anyway, I concede that a post of mine earlier in this thread was resoundingly defeated in the thread started to challenge it. > [@foolsguinea](#): > > Meh. > > In the period from 1975-1990, the USSR was arguably the least bad of the three imperial superpowers. > > [snip] > > If Bernie was cozying up to the Russia bloc while the right wing were cozying up to the Maoists, yeah, he looks _better_ than the people who have been running the country since then. > > But by all means, let’s dredge up that history, and see what the younger generation think of it. Thanks to XT and Deeg, among others, for reminding me that central Europe, while not the hellhole China and the USA made of Cambodia, was very much under the Russian boot. That said, I quote myself here, as relevant to this thread: > [@1975-1990, the USSR was arguably the least bad of the three imperial superpowers](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1975-1990-the-ussr-was-arguably-the-least-bad-of-the-three-imperial-superpowers/745246/69): > > Yeah, I think Bernie was a peacenik, not a Fellow Traveler or whatever the term is. He seems mostly to have been associated with Trotskyists, not Stalinists, which undermines any claims of Moscow sympathies. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2016, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/267 "2016-02-09T23:29:04Z")
My lack of God! It’s Trostky! :eek: ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2016, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/268 "2016-02-09T23:30:34Z")
I am sympathetic to Trotskyism, as is my 16-year-old son who is learning about it in AP world history from a left-wing teacher. But that is not a selling point in a presidential election. To see it bandied about as such is an indication of how deep this disconnect really is. As for the “existential threat” debate, I am going to sidestep arguing the definition and say that it sets an absurdly high bar for military action. Ron Paul might approve, but even his son Rand probably would not. It would be scurrilous for us to abandon the allies we have made commitments to. Who would ever trust us on anything again? It strikes me as like saying that health insurance should only cover conditions or injuries that are life-threatening, much like the regrettable minimum standard in emergency rooms for those without insurance. Or maybe the police should only investigate murder and not any other crimes. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2016, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/269 "2016-02-09T23:35:47Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > It would be scurrilous for us to abandon the allies we have made commitments to. Who would ever trust us on anything again? Who really needs American military protection any more? Europe doesn’t, not even if Putin got hooked on crystal meth. Israel doesn’t, it can take care of itself, it always has. Not even South Korea does. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2016, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/270 "2016-02-09T23:42:40Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > No you are ruining the use of the phrase. ISIS so far has carried out attacks on foreign soil with Ak 47’s. They don’t have WMD, they don’t have nuclear weapons, they don’t have fighter jets, or aircraft carriers. Vast areas of the globe are under control of or under threat by ISIS, and other Islamist groups, who have managed to absolutely ruin the areas, without any of the weapons you mention. And ISIS doesn’t have nukes, but Pakistan does. You know, the country who’s intelligence agency harbored Bin Ladin, and carried out in Mumbai the same sort of attack as ISIS carried out in Paris. I am not saying you are factually wrong for stating that ISIS doesn’t present an existential threat. There is a good case to be made that they do not. My point is that if you are going to use that tight of a definition (which, again, is perfectly reasonable), then it’s also not an appropriate term to use to minimize the threat, or to convince others not to act with force against the threat. We don’t have to, and should not, wait until a threat has the capacity to completely destroy us before we respond to it forcefully. Especially when the groups have an elaborated intent to damage and destroy us, and especially when they enjoy such widespread and populous support. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2016, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/271 "2016-02-10T00:08:16Z")
I am not saying we shouldn’t respond to ISIS militarily. We absolutely should, but their threat needs to kept in perspective. Mostly they are a threat to stability of surrounding countries. They have not yet demonstrated any ability to carry out the sort of coordinated terrorism that Al Qaeda managed to pull off. Yes we should do our best to stop them gaining that ability. I still see no evidence that Bernie would be any worse at stopping them than Clinton. In fact Clinton’s failed policies are what created the power vacuums in Iraq and Libya that allowed ISIS to gain power. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2016, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/272 "2016-02-10T00:18:27Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Ehhhhhh, yes and no. I don’t think the military needs to be as big as it is now, **but it does need to be big enough to credibly defeat any other military in the world.** We don’t want another situation like we had at the beginning of WWII, and that was after a pretty decent buildup. For most of American history we never insisted on that and we did just fine. We changed that for WWII and the Cold War, when it looked like the world needed America. But the world does not need one supreme policeman-protector any more, and America does not need global military supremacy. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2016, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/273 "2016-02-10T00:26:57Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Who really needs American military protection any more? Europe doesn’t, not even if Putin got hooked on crystal meth. Israel doesn’t, it can take care of itself, it always has. Not even South Korea does. S. Korea definitely does. And you must have borrowed the pipe from Putin if you think the Baltic republics can hold Russia off without NATO. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2016, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/274 "2016-02-10T00:33:54Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > I am not saying we shouldn’t respond to ISIS militarily. We absolutely should, but their threat needs to kept in perspective. Mostly they are a threat to stability of surrounding countries. They have not yet demonstrated any ability to carry out the sort of coordinated terrorism that Al Qaeda managed to pull off. Yes we should do our best to stop them gaining that ability. I agree that we should keep it in perspective, but we can’t really do that and do our best to stop them, at the same time. We have to balance the costs, and make hard decisions about what responses the risks warrant. I see no reason to think Bernie is prepared for this. > [@](#): > > I still see no evidence that Bernie would be any worse at stopping them than Clinton. In fact Clinton’s failed policies are what created the power vacuums in Iraq and Libya that allowed ISIS to gain power. What would Bernie have done differently? Not intervened in Libya? There was already a large scale rebellion going on, and Gaddafi was getting ready to unleash artillery on tightly packed urban areas. Would the world be a better place if that had been allowed to happen? If so, would he have ultimately retained power? After killing how many? We didn’t intervene in Syria, do you think it turned out better there? Or would he eventually have fallen anyway, leading to the same amount of chaos, or possibly worse? I don’t know the answer to any of these things to any kind of certainty at all, and I always suspect those that claim to, like Bernie, of having an idealistic understanding of the situation. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2016, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/275 "2016-02-10T01:44:18Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > What would Bernie have done differently? Not intervened in Libya? Well for thing he’s enough of an outsider that he can take a hard line on Saudi Arabia and Turkey. Clinton admits that Saudi Arabia is the largest sponsor of Sunni terrorism: [http://www.almasdarnews.com/article/wikileaks-hillary-clinton-claims-saudi-arabia-largest-donor-sunni-terrorists-worldwide/](http://www.almasdarnews.com/article/wikileaks-hillary-clinton-claims-saudi-arabia-largest-donor-sunni-terrorists-worldwide/) yet she’s still happy to take their money: > **[Hillary Clinton took money from the kings of four countries, GOP chief Reince...](https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2015/apr/20/reince-priebus/hillary-clinton-took-money-kings-four-countries-go/)** > > For probably as long as Democrats anticipated Hillary Clinton announcing for president, Republicans anticipated attackin No one sees a problem with this? ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2016, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/276 "2016-02-10T01:48:16Z")
Obama is really bad on Saudi Arabia too. If you can link me to statements Bernie has made which unambiguously attack Saudi Arabia as no country we should ever be allies with, my resolve might start to crack. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2016, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/277 "2016-02-10T01:57:28Z")
That’s the biggest problem with the Middle East. Our allies aren’t really our allies, and our enemies can become our allies temporarily. I’m reading a book about the war in Iraq right now and it’s covering the Anbar Awakening and geez. Former insurgents turning against Al Qaeda, but sometimes also fighting the Iraqi government, and half of the military in favor of helping them and half against because they can’t be trusted… Complicated stuff. But that’s how the whole Muslim world is. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2016, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/278 "2016-02-10T02:01:08Z")
Uh oh, that’s the cue for someone to call you an Islamophobe. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2016, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/279 "2016-02-10T02:02:19Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Obama is really bad on Saudi Arabia too. If you can link me to statements Bernie has made which unambiguously attack Saudi Arabia as no country we should ever be allies with, my resolve might start to crack. Well, not exactly, but he has had [this](http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/nov/24/bernie-s/bernie-sanders-right-saudi-arabia-more-focused-con/) to say. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2016, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/280 "2016-02-10T02:06:59Z")
That’s not at all what I am looking for. I think he is more couching it in terms of “hey, Saudi Arabia, you’re our ally, so we need you to get into the game”. I want to see politicians angling to treat them like the pariah South Africa became under apartheid. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209.md?page=15)