# Bernie's Soviet "honeymoon" and trips to Nicaragua and Cuba are disqualifying. **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [February 5, 2016, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209 "2016-02-05T06:15:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2016, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/281 "2016-02-10T02:31:33Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > yet she’s still happy to take their money: > [PolitiFact | Hillary Clinton took money from the kings of four countries, GOP chief Reince Priebus says](http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/statements/2015/apr/20/reince-priebus/hillary-clinton-took-money-kings-four-countries-go/) > > No one sees a problem with this? She took the money of Saudi monarchs and used it to provide AIDs treatment in Nigeria that transforms the lives of teenage girls. I think you are mixing up who exactly the dominant player in this game is. They are paying her tribute because she is powerful, and she is using it to advance _her_ interests, which are humanitarian. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2016, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/282 "2016-02-10T03:04:23Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > They are paying her tribute because she is powerful, and she is using it to advance _her_ interests, which are humanitarian. HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAH… Oh wait, sorry you really believe this? Funny enough she cleared a massive arms deal to Saudi Arabia as secretary of state just after the Clinton Foundation got a $10 m donation: > **[Weapons Deals And The Clinton Foundation](https://www.ibtimes.com/clinton-foundation-donors-got-weapons-deals-hillary-clintons-state-department-1934187)** > > Under Hillary Clinton, the State Department approved $165 billion worth of commercial arms sales to 20 nations whose governments had given millions to the Clinton Foundation. Another article on the potential conflicts of interest: [https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/right-turn/wp/2015/02/18/foreign-donations-to-hillary-clintons-foundation-raise-major-ethical-questions/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/right-turn/wp/2015/02/18/foreign-donations-to-hillary-clintons-foundation-raise-major-ethical-questions/) ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2016, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/283 "2016-02-10T03:42:15Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAH… Oh wait, sorry you really believe this? > > Funny enough she cleared a massive arms deal to Saudi Arabia as secretary of state just after the Clinton Foundation got a $10 m donation: > [Clinton Foundation Donors Got Weapons Deals From Hillary Clinton's State Department | IBTimes](http://www.ibtimes.com/clinton-foundation-donors-got-weapons-deals-hillary-clintons-state-department-1934187) And she would have cleared it without the donation, because we are in bed with those fuckers. I get the criticism of conflict of interest. I share a little bit of the distrust of her that some people have. I don’t even really like her all that much, she is just so much better than any of the other candidates. Remember, that money that she took got funneled from Saudi monarchs to health projects benefiting some of the neediest people in the world, through programs that are un-sexy, but proven highly effective. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2016, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/284 "2016-02-10T03:55:36Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > And she would have cleared it without the donation, because we are in bed with those fuckers. Read the article, its not just Saudi Arabia. She statistically gave more arms deals to the countries that donated to her foundation than ones which did not. All the figures are in there. If that’s not evidence of blatant corruption then I don’t know what else I can show you. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2016, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/285 "2016-02-10T04:05:37Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > Read the article, its not just Saudi Arabia. She statistically gave more arms deals to the countries that donated to her foundation than ones which did not. All the figures are in there. If that’s not evidence of blatant corruption then I don’t know what else I can show you. This is just silly. Of course it isn’t evidence of corruption. Wouldn’t you expect her to have the ability to get more donations from countries that we have ongoing relationships with? Would you expect the Iranians or North Koreans to donate? She has a high profile, and uses it to gather donations for very needed projects. Just think of all of the people with productive lives who would have died or been disabled by disease, or lost their children, if she hadn’t. And the fact that some of the money came from Saudi monarchs makes it that much sweeter. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2016, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/286 "2016-02-10T04:12:25Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > This is just silly. > > Of course it isn’t evidence of corruption. Wouldn’t you expect her to have the ability to get more donations from countries that we have ongoing relationships with? Would you expect the Iranians or North Koreans to donate? Again you haven’t read the article. Its comparing other countries that had previous arms deals under the bush administrations to her arms deals while secretary of state. Statistically those countries who donated to the Clinton foundation got increases in approved arms sales considerably more than countries which didn’t. The Washington Post certainly doesn’t think its silly and they’re about as establishment as you can get. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2016, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/287 "2016-02-10T04:29:57Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > Again you haven’t read the article. Its comparing other countries that had previous arms deals under the bush administrations to her arms deals while secretary of state. > Statistically those countries who donated to the Clinton foundation got increases in approved arms sales considerably more than countries which didn’t. I did read the Washpo article, and skimmed all the way through the other one. They are just making unfounded claims. Nations with chances at arms deals may have very well _hoped_ to grease the wheels. That doesn’t mean deals went through that otherwise would not have. What we do know is that some of the same countries who bought weapons also gave money that ultimately paid for highly cost effective medical treatments and ongoing programs, for some of the most vulnerable and disadvantaged people in the world. Young women in Africa granted pardons from the death sentences of being born with AIDS, paid for right out of the Saudi sheikhs’ pockets. Go Hillary. > [@](#): > > The Washington Post certainly doesn’t think its silly and they’re about as establishment as you can get. And, as far as I know, not particularly friendly to Hillary. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2016, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/288 "2016-02-10T04:42:21Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > Young women in Africa granted pardons from the death sentences of being born with AIDS, paid for right out of the Saudi sheikhs’ pockets. Go Hillary. Except there is considerable controversy about how much of the foundations funding actually goes to charity: > **[Charity watchdog: Clinton Foundation a ‘slush fund’](https://nypost.com/2015/04/26/charity-watchdog-clinton-foundation-a-slush-fund/)** > > The Clinton Foundation’s finances are so messy that the nation’s most influential charity watchdog put it on its “watch list” of problematic nonprofits last month. The Clinton family’s mega-charity… "Charity Navigator put the foundation on its “watch list,” which warns potential donors about investing in problematic charities. " > **[The Clinton Foundation’s Stingy Ways | National Review](https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/clinton-foundations-stingy-ways-david-french/)** > > Over at The Federalist, Sean Davis has a must-read report about the Clinton Foundation’s extraordinary stinginess with grants. The Foundation claimed that 88 percent of its 2013 expenditures “go di… “It looks like the Foundation — which once did a large amount of direct charitable work — now exists mainly to fund salaries, travel, and conferences” Anyway, I leave it to other people to judge if having the proportion of arms sales approved by a secretary of state directly tied to donations to her charity is a problem or not. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2016, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/289 "2016-02-10T04:45:05Z")
I’m going to ask an ignorant question: Surely Nigeria can use its own oil revenues for charitable works in that country. I know Saudi A. has ludicrously high revenues, but why send money to Nigeria in particular? ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2016, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/290 "2016-02-10T04:50:25Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > I know Saudi A. has ludicrously high revenues, but why send money to Nigeria in particular? They’re not. The Clinton Foundation has not had a program in Nigeria since 2012. There is considerable controversy about what actual direct programs they have been supporting in the last four years. Less than 10 percent of their funding has been passed through to other charities in grants. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2016, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/291 "2016-02-10T13:23:37Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > You are naively focusing on one factor only. ISIS does not only have a presence in areas with a power vacuum. Upper class women in Karachi are supporting ISIS, for example. European raised Muslims are flocking to it, and attacking their home countries in support of ISIS. The common factor among populations supporting ISIS is that they are Sunni Muslims, usually those who have been influenced by Saudi funded mosques. There are, as always, multiple factors, but the Iraq War is a huge one. The US and its coalition allies thoroughly discredited our own rhetoric about Western values, and killed lots and lots of Muslims in the process. It’s not shocking that, in the aftermath, a non-zero number of Muslims reject Western values and are hostile to the West. > [@Hank Beecher](#): > > Ground invasions done _on the cheap_ contributed to this, but did not cause this. We have no way of knowing what the world would be like if Saddam was not taken out of power. It may have been better, and it may in fact have been worse. The ground invasion caused this (ISIS, that is), irrespective of what would have happened in an alternate timeline. > [@Hank Beecher](#): > > Those are platitudes that bring nothing new whatsoever to the table, aside from a comforting but clueless detachment from realities on the ground. Do you think that Obama is not trying to work with partners in the region? Do you think that Clinton’s plans don’t include working with them? Not platitudes so much as the slow, unglamorous work of diplomacy. It’s not as sexy as the Republican plans for “precision carpet bombing” and the like, but it’s more likely to actually change things for the better. It won’t happen overnight, if that’s your concern. I don’t think Clinton’s policy would be dramatically different, but see below. > [@](#): > > Then the last person we need in power is a politician with no grasp of foreign policy, who is more likely to blindly lead us to a situation where a large scale war is our only option. I’m not so sure that Sanders is one with a poor grasp of foreign policy. Back in 2002, Clinton was a major architect of the Iraq War. Sanders was fully opposed. Looking back…who had the better grasp of foreign policy, and who blindly led us to a situation where a large scale war ensured? > [@](#): > > I keep asking the same question the moderator asked Sanders in the debate: what is there about his foreign policy that differentiates it from Clinton’s? And this is the only answer, that we are going to get the “Moose-slims” to lead for us. Like, what in the actual fuck does he think we have been trying to do over there for the last decade? Where does he think the Iraqi army got the American made Humvees and artillery that they essentially donated to ISIS? Again, I don’t think there’s some profound difference, but there is reason to doubt Clinton’s judgment. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2016, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/292 "2016-02-11T02:24:17Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > There are, as always, multiple factors, but the Iraq War is a huge one. The US and its coalition allies thoroughly discredited our own rhetoric about Western values, and killed lots and lots of Muslims in the process. It’s not shocking that, in the aftermath, a non-zero number of Muslims reject Western values and are hostile to the West. The is a very common narrative, and also completely wrong. In the grand scheme of things, our foreign policy has played the very tiniest part in Muslims’ rejection of Western values (to the substantial but far from total degree that they do so). Sayyid Qutb had been dead for 25 years before the first invasion of Iraq. To a large degree, orthodox Islam has been at odds with Western values ever since Al-Ghazali’s _Incoherence_ challenged and sidelined Ibn Rushd a thousand years ago. It’s kind of hard to square the worldviews of Ben Franklin or Voltaire with a philosophy in which innovation itself is, by default, a negative thing. I am sure Hillary is aware of this, and have no reason to think Bernie has a clue about it. > [@](#): > > The ground invasion caused this (ISIS, that is), irrespective of what would have happened in an alternate timeline. ISIS gained power in Syria, which we never invaded, and then expanded into Iraq. If we had not invaded, they presumably would have either done the same, due to chaos that would have developed in the alternative timeline anyway, or they would have been held back by a murderous tyrant, who was obviously willing to kill just as many as Assad has to stay in power, when he was around. > [@](#): > > Not platitudes so much as the slow, unglamorous work of diplomacy. It’s not as sexy as the Republican plans for “precision carpet bombing” and the like, but it’s more likely to actually change things for the better. It won’t happen overnight, if that’s your concern. He has no plan at all, it’s based on an incredibly idealistic vision of the world. He thinks he can succeed by getting “the Muslims” to help, which obviously implies that he thinks this an non-deployed method. He uses it as his example of how he would _change_ foreign policy, when it’s an obvious component of any strategy at all, with severe limitations that we are already pushing up against, to put it very lightly. > [@](#): > > I don’t think Clinton’s policy would be dramatically different, but see below. > > I’m not so sure that Sanders is one with a poor grasp of foreign policy. Back in 2002, Clinton was a major architect of the Iraq War. Sanders was fully opposed. Looking back…who had the better grasp of foreign policy, and who blindly led us to a situation where a large scale war ensured? A common tactic of job interviewers is to ask a person about their mistakes. If they can’t immediately list large mistakes, then it is clear that they either are not telling the truth, or have never tried to do anything challenging or taken any risks. > [@](#): > > Again, I don’t think there’s some profound difference, but there is reason to doubt Clinton’s judgment. The big difference is that Clinton is enough of a grown-up to realize that “getting the Moose-slims” to lead the way is not a real foreign policy platform ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2016, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/293 "2016-02-11T03:01:10Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > The is a very common narrative, and also completely wrong. In the grand scheme of things, our foreign policy has played the very tiniest part in Muslims’ rejection of Western values (to the substantial but far from total degree that they do so). Completely wrong and misleading. We know this because repeatedly when islamists are asked what contributed to their radicalisation they say that images of western bombs and civilian casualties in Iraq, Afghanistan etc were one of the triggers. Sure they then go on to adopt a philosophy that was developed decades ago, but the images that are circulated in arabic social media of civilian casualties and destroyed cities are what makes them first take interest. Several serious journalists have written analysis of Dabiq, ISIS english language propaganda magazine, and US foreign policy and support for Israel is mentioned again and again as justification for violent Jihad. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2016, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/294 "2016-02-11T04:04:58Z")
Oh dear, the Chomskyesque masochistic, everything is the West’s fault narrative. Sam Harris has expertly picked this one apart, but only gets called a racist for his trouble. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2016, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/295 "2016-02-11T04:49:30Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Oh dear, the Chomskyesque masochistic, everything is the West’s fault narrative. Sam Harris has expertly picked this one apart, but only gets called a racist for his trouble. \>literally citing Sam Harris ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2016, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/296 "2016-02-11T04:51:25Z")
And? ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2016, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/297 "2016-02-11T04:53:53Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > And? You do realize Harris is basically an unadulterated neocon Rubioite on foreign policy, especially regarding Islamic countries except people think he’s Enlightened! because he says “Yeah Muhammad’s shit but Jesus’s a faggot too”. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2016, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/298 "2016-02-11T05:00:40Z")
No, I “realize” nothing of the sort. I have listened to his podcast, read his articles, and watched his videos for years. There is no single person on the planet I agree with more, although Bill Maher comes close. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2016, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/299 "2016-02-11T05:07:25Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > No, I “realize” nothing of the sort. I have listened to his podcast, read his articles, and watched his videos for years. There is no single person on the planet I agree with more, although Bill Maher comes close. The last supporter Hillary Clinton needs is you in that case. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2016, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/300 "2016-02-11T05:09:51Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > You do realize Harris is basically an unadulterated neocon Rubioite on foreign policy, especially regarding Islamic countries except people think he’s Enlightened! because he says “Yeah Muhammad’s shit but Jesus’s a faggot too”. Umm, no, unless you define those things to mean anyone who isn’t a turtling isolationist, and naively tolerant of the Religious Right whenever the religion is Islam. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209.md?page=16)