# Bernie's Soviet "honeymoon" and trips to Nicaragua and Cuba are disqualifying. **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [February 5, 2016, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209 "2016-02-05T06:15:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2016, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/321 "2016-02-11T20:07:32Z")
Looks like John Lewis just saved the day. Firewall activated. What a relief! ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2016, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/322 "2016-02-11T23:57:44Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > But a not insignificant one is to see what the history books say about this whole debate between the “regressive left” and the New Atheists like Harris. Our ideological camp is a pretty small one now, but I have to believe it will be vindicated by history. It’s been the viewpoint of the establishment for a long time. Certainly the Bush administration. Look at the presidential front runners. Trump wants to halt all Muslim immigration and Hillary is more hawkish than Obama, who’s bombing half the Middle East. A lot of Americans think Islam needs to be destroyed or reformed, certainly not a small group (unless it needs to be paired with atheism) ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2016, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/323 "2016-02-12T00:50:13Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > As far as those driven to terrorism, consider this: Hindus, Sikhs, Muslims, Jains, and Buddhists all suffered under the British colonization of South Asia. But only Islamists attack Britain as part of a global campaign of terrorism. In Iraq, Yazidis and Christians haven’t gone on to form groups trying to attack the US for invading and leading to chaos in which entire communities were wiped out. Nor did the Kurds, who suffered greatly due to our blunders in the 90’s. I see your point, but it’s poorly stated. I don’t think that modern S Asian Deobandi Muslims are particularly driven by \*anti-British \*sentiment now. And there have been Sikh-affiliated terror attacks in the last half-century, on India especially. And if you ask a Muslim about religion and terrorism, they’ll probably start talking about Armenians in the Nagorno-Karabach War. Salafis, Deobandi with Salafi influence, and Turkish nationalists are three groups in Asia known for both ethnic violence and at least nominal Muslim ties. There are some radical Islamist groups across the breadth of the Sahel with similar issues. But they may have more in common with Christian militants in places like Central Africa than they would want to admit. Generalizing about Islam is, well, generalizing. That said, yes, Saudi oil money has fed the current global militancy, due to Saudi being able to fund missionaries to the rest of the world. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2016, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/324 "2016-02-12T00:58:52Z")
And of course not all Turks/Deobandi/Salafi are violent fanatics, any more than all white evangelicals. And not all atheists are sweetness and charity. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2016, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/325 "2016-02-12T13:29:56Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > The is a very common narrative, and also completely wrong. In the grand scheme of things, our foreign policy has played the very tiniest part in Muslims’ rejection of Western values (to the substantial but far from total degree that they do so). Sayyid Qutb had been dead for 25 years before the first invasion of Iraq. To a large degree, orthodox Islam has been at odds with Western values ever since Al-Ghazali’s _Incoherence_ challenged and sidelined Ibn Rushd a thousand years ago. It’s kind of hard to square the worldviews of Ben Franklin or Voltaire with a philosophy in which innovation itself is, by default, a negative thing. I am sure Hillary is aware of this, and have no reason to think Bernie has a clue about it. Our foreign policy seems almost designed to incite Muslims to attack us (or at least desire to), and Iraq & Afghanistan are cited by Muslim terrorists, including one of the Charlie Hebdo attackers. There’s no way it plays only the “tiniest part” in anti-Western violence. Further, it’s something the President can control (unlike, say, writings from a thousand years ago). > [@](#): > > ISIS gained power in Syria, which we never invaded, and then expanded into Iraq. If we had not invaded, they presumably would have either done the same, due to chaos that would have developed in the alternative timeline anyway, or they would have been held back by a murderous tyrant, who was obviously willing to kill just as many as Assad has to stay in power, when he was around. ISIS was formed in Iraq, by Sunnis who’d been purged from power by the American invasion and subsequent de-Baathification. No invasion, no ISIS. In an alternate timeline, the founders of ISIS work for the Hussein regime, instead of forming AQI and then ISIS. > [@](#): > > He has no plan at all, it’s based on an incredibly idealistic vision of the world. He thinks he can succeed by getting “the Muslims” to help, which obviously implies that he thinks this an non-deployed method. He uses it as his example of how he would _change_ foreign policy, when it’s an obvious component of any strategy at all, with severe limitations that we are already pushing up against, to put it very lightly. Again, diplomacy and steady progress are plans, they’re just not sexy ones. I don’t interpret Sanders as saying no diplomacy is being done, but rather that it’s half-hearted and easily mistrusted, considering our history. A changed American could undertake a new diplomacy. > [@](#): > > A common tactic of job interviewers is to ask a person about their mistakes. If they can’t immediately list large mistakes, then it is clear that they either are not telling the truth, or have never tried to do anything challenging or taken any risks. Clinton remains hawkish to this day. If it was clear that she’d learned from her mistake, that’d be one thing, but I don’t think she has. > [@](#): > > The big difference is that Clinton is enough of a grown-up to realize that “getting the Moose-slims” to lead the way is not a real foreign policy platform Or, he’s enough of a grown-up to realize that you can’t kill your way out of every problem. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2016, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/327 "2016-02-12T20:08:38Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > That’s very unfortunate. It’s a sad, sad statement for the Democratic Party that it’s perceived as more open to Sam Harris then Ross Douthat. [Sam Harris.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Harris) [Ross Douthat.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ross_Douthat) Thanks for your input, but the Democrats would do best to leave things exactly as you describe them. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2016, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/328 "2016-02-12T20:10:01Z")
> [@JennyLV](#): > > I realize that this is an old discussion, but I just wanted to say that if Bernie is the nominee; > > **HELLO PRESIDENT TRUMP!** Oh, Sanders can beat Trump, all right. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2016, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/329 "2016-02-12T20:11:30Z")
Won’t have to, Trump will beat Trump. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2016, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/330 "2016-02-12T20:13:40Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Won’t have to, Trump will beat Trump. Yes . . . he’ll find that what makes his base roar with approval is not so well received by anyone else. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2016, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/331 "2016-02-12T20:27:36Z")
The First Emperor is right about Harris and Douthat. Sam Harris is only persuasive to people who’ve never read much from other perspectives. In that way, actually, his writing on religion, and Islam in particular, is a lot like Noam Chomsky’s writing on foreign policy (even though they hate each other). Both are scientists who apply a kind of stilted, context-free, cherry-picking style to the great tapestry of human experience, and they don’t really understand humans well enough to be able to write realistically about human motivations and complexities. They have a sort of autistic worldview, for lack of a better term. Ross Douthat is not as smart as Harris. And on most issues he is not as liberal. But Douthat has enough humility and social intelligence to understand that there are different ways to think about the world. He can be counted on, for the most part, to attack charitable versions of his opponents’ arguments instead of straw men. Agree or disagree with his arguments, they don’t read like a set of context-free scientific measurements artificially strung together to reach predetermined conclusions that ignore basic social and cultural truths. They read more like an ordinary human genuinely struggling with difficult questions, even when the conclusions he reaches are ones you’d disagree with. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2016, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/332 "2016-02-12T20:35:34Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > But its current, and widely reviled, leader Vladimir Putin . . . > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > What, Trump **loves** him! When they met, Putin was wearing this grandfather’s tie pin, covered in gold leaf and half-carat emeralds with alternate inlays of ivory, ruby and jade, and when Trump looked into Putin’s eyes, he recognized the soul of a man with _taste_. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2016, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/333 "2016-02-12T20:50:15Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Sam Harris is only persuasive to people who’ve never read much from other perspectives. This doesn’t seem consistent with his popularity among ex-Muslims and progressive Muslims. Many who have left Islam hold views very similar to his, as do some moderate and progressive Muslims who challenge mainstream Islam, and their experiences confirm much of what he contends. That is the biggest reason he is persuasive to me. What other perspectives should someone persuaded by Sam Harris be aware of? ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2016, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/334 "2016-02-12T21:01:01Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > This doesn’t seem consistent with his popularity among ex-Muslims and progressive Muslims. Many who have left Islam hold views very similar to his, as do some moderate and progressive Muslims who challenge mainstream Islam, and their experiences confirm much of what he contends. That is the biggest reason he is persuasive to me. I know a lot of progressive Muslims and ex-Muslims personally. None of them thinks Sam Harris writes intelligently about Islam. That’s anecdotal, of course, but so is your observation. I think there is the rare figure like Hirsi Ali who likes Harris, but she is not representative of ex-Muslims, much less liberal Muslims generally. > [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > What other perspectives should someone persuaded by Sam Harris be aware of? It depends on the parts you find persuasive. In general, I’d read some books by people who are experts on the sociology of religion. I enjoyed large parts of Lapidus’s _History of Islamic Societies._ Ansary’s _Destiny Disrupted_ is not an academic work, but it also provides the kind of historical and social context missing from Harris’s arguments. Shadi Hamid writes great stuff. Read Shadi Hamid on ISIS and compare that to the way Sam Harris or Ayaan Hirsi Ali talks about these things. It is clear who is the polemicist and who is the scholar. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2016, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/335 "2016-02-12T21:26:52Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Our foreign policy seems almost designed to incite Muslims to attack us (or at least desire to), and Iraq & Afghanistan are cited by Muslim terrorists, including one of the Charlie Hebdo attackers. There’s no way it plays only the “tiniest part” in anti-Western violence. But that’s not what you quoted me saying. I said it played the tiniest part in the rejection of Western values. And as far as incitement by our foreign policy, I agree with you to a large degree. But I also realize that to the bulk of the Muslims susceptible to being recruited or incited, the only foreign policy that they will accept is submission to their goal: the horror show of a continuous expansion of the social and military manifestation of Islam, destroying all resistance, and erasing the cultural artifacts and memories of every other group. > [@](#): > > Further, it’s something the President can control (unlike, say, writings from a thousand years ago). Sure, but she could also be aware of the different strains of thought within Islam and how they interact with other factors to contribute to the current clusterfuck. I have far more confidence in Hillary than any other candidate to have an understanding that is nuanced, humanitarian, and pragmatic. > [@](#): > > ISIS was formed in Iraq, by Sunnis who’d been purged from power by the American invasion and subsequent de-Baathification. No invasion, no ISIS. In an alternate timeline, the founders of ISIS work for the Hussein regime, instead of forming AQI and then ISIS. The same phenomenon occurred in Syria where we did not invade. Syria is in every bit as bad a state as Iraq. There is no reason to expect that post Arab-spring Iraq would be better off if we had not invaded. It may have been, but it may have been worse, especially considering the demographics, and Saddam’s demonstrated willingness to murder hoards of his own citizens. > [@](#): > > Again, diplomacy and steady progress are plans, they’re just not sexy ones. I don’t interpret Sanders as saying no diplomacy is being done, but rather that it’s half-hearted That’s what I interpret him as saying as well, and this is why I can tell that he doesn’t have any grasp on the situation. The strategy has very severe circumstantial limitations that we have been working at the edge of for a long time. His proposed improvement is a pipe dream, and he has shown a naivety likely to cause him to make bad mistakes. > [@](#): > > Clinton remains hawkish to this day. If it was clear that she’d learned from her mistake, that’d be one thing, but I don’t think she has. What should she have done differently as Secretary of State? > [@](#): > > Or, he’s enough of a grown-up to realize that you can’t kill your way out of every problem. That doesn’t describe Clinton at all, but it’s does sounds like Rubio’s foreign policy rhetoric. Clinton will most likely continue Obama’s strategy, which has been to remain involved, but to heavily limit military engagement, cost, commitment, and risk. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2016, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/336 "2016-02-12T21:31:25Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > …but to heavily limit military engagement, cost, commitment, and risk. So, I can put my war protest stuff in the attic and leave it there? Groovy! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2016, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/337 "2016-02-12T21:50:18Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > There is no reason to expect that post Arab-spring Iraq would be better off if we had not invaded. There is no reason to expect the Arab Spring would have happened at all if we had not invaded. We destabilized the whole region, not just Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2016, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/338 "2016-02-12T21:58:16Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > There is no reason to expect the Arab Spring would have happened at all if we had not invaded. We destabilized the whole region, not just Iraq. Nonsense. The US invasion of Iraq had almost no role in Tunisia’s uprising, which was the start of the Arab Spring. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2016, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/339 "2016-02-13T02:11:58Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [Sam Harris.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Harris) > > [Ross Douthat.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ross_Douthat) > > Thanks for your input, but the Democrats would do best to leave things exactly as you describe them. How come? Haven’t you been the one urging the Democrats and the left to focus on socioeconomic bread and butter issues over cultural wedges? Why is a defender of torture and someone who repeats neocon rhetoric on Islam better then a conservative Catholic genuinely concerned with blue-collar welfare? ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2016, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/340 "2016-02-13T04:40:36Z")
False premise. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2016, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/341 "2016-02-15T23:50:19Z")
Why is this supposed to matter to anyone? Maybe I’m too young, given the USSR fell when I was 14, but I don’t understand what’s _so_ eyebrow raising about someone honeymooning in the Soviet Union way back when or how it’s supposed to be proof of his admitted socialist bent. People weren’t forbidden to travel there (like Cuba,) right? Did only communist sympathizers take trips there in the late 80s? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209.md?page=18)