# Bernie's Soviet "honeymoon" and trips to Nicaragua and Cuba are disqualifying. **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [February 5, 2016, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209 "2016-02-05T06:15:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2016, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/21 "2016-02-05T13:24:54Z")
It’s so lucky for you that the candidate you already didn’t support turns out to have a scandal that disqualifies him from office. Thanks, George Will! Looking at this “scandal” in isolation is a mistake. Everyone who watches politics knows that the Republican Spin Industry has made an art form out of ginning up scandal out of anything they can get their paws on. The question shouldn’t be, will they turn this into a scandal? The question should be, how will the scandals they try to pin on Sanders compare to the scandals they’ll try to pin on Clinton? For Sanders, they’ll paint him as a socialist. He’ll say, “Yeah, and?” and make it his job to convince voters that his proposals work for them. Sanders is pretty unlikely to spend much time talking about this trip. It may hurt him. For Clinton, they’ll talk about emails, Bengazi, emails, Watergate, her husband’s affairs, emails, Vince Foster, Travelgate, fantasy snipers, Foggy Bottom, emails, Sidney Blumenthal, and electronic message servers. Clinton is likely to give snide dismissals of claims, falling back on what was strictly legal rather than discussing whether her behavior was ethical. For the OP to make sense, you’d need to argue that Sanders’s trips and letters from the eighties are somehow **more** scandalfodder than Clinton’s behavior from the last decade, let alone her behavior from the last quarter century. Is that really an argument anyone thinks they can make? ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2016, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/22 "2016-02-05T13:52:32Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Sure, but it’s always nice to have a possible counter case to make. The counter position is “What a load of bush-league bullshit.” ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2016, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/23 "2016-02-05T14:43:10Z")
If this kind of lame nothingburger is the best your side has got, that’s one more reason I wish I had the GOP HQ antacid and booze concessions. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2016, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/24 "2016-02-05T15:16:34Z")
I think ignoring pleas for help and letting the ambassador in Benghazi get murdered by Islamofascists is a little worse than a 30 year old vacation. ---
**Author:** ![CaptMurdock](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/captmurdock/32/11736_2.png) [@CaptMurdock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaptMurdock)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2016, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/25 "2016-02-05T15:18:30Z")
I agree. Good thing for Hillary that that’s not what happened. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2016, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/26 "2016-02-05T15:23:51Z")
She already accepted responsibility for the failures. Why deny it? ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2016, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/27 "2016-02-05T15:25:53Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Is that really an argument anyone thinks they can make? Yeah, of course it is, for one simple reason: few people are judging Hillary for the first time in 2016 while many are judging Bernie for the first time. Ergo, Bernie’s “scandals” matter a lot more than Hillary’s. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2016, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/28 "2016-02-05T15:27:59Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > She already accepted responsibility for the failures. Why deny it? Cite that she admitted ignoring please for help? ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2016, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/29 "2016-02-05T15:29:51Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > I’m hoping he wins in New Hamphire, then fades away. I predict he will win in New Hampshire, then fade away. As noted earlier, he does serve a useful purpose in pulling the Overton Window back toward the center. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2016, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/30 "2016-02-05T15:30:29Z")
Hey, I am just telling you what the GOP spin machine will say. You gonna ask for a cite from the SuperPac commercials? ---
**Author:** ![davida03801](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5e925/32.png) [@davida03801](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davida03801)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2016, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/31 "2016-02-05T15:35:59Z")
Deep down Bernie is much more that a mild European Socialist. I think his real thoughts, that he dare not speak, are much more radical. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2016, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/32 "2016-02-05T15:50:10Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Yeah, of course it is, for one simple reason: few people are judging Hillary for the first time in 2016 while many are judging Bernie for the first time. Ergo, Bernie’s “scandals” matter a lot more than Hillary’s. I’m missing your “ergo.” Why would a “new” scandal matter more than an old one, or an ongoing one? Edit: to be clear, the scandal is new only in the sense that it’s the latest thing dug up by a Republican spin doctor and gleefully bandied about by Democrats who oppose Sanders, not that it’s dealing with anything from the last quarter century. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2016, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/33 "2016-02-05T15:57:29Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I’m missing your “ergo.” Why would a “new” scandal matter more than an old one, or an ongoing one? > > Edit: to be clear, the scandal is new only in the sense that it’s the latest thing dug up by a Republican spin doctor and gleefully bandied about by Democrats who oppose Sanders, not that it’s dealing with anything from the last quarter century. Because of the way people form opinions about people. We are Bayesians. I’ve known you for years now as a poster on this message board. If someone comes along and reveals your secret text messages showing you to have used some racial slurs, it is not going to cause me to radically revise my view of you because I’m incorporating that piece of evidence into a much larger body of evidence. By contrast, if a February 2016 join date posts some crypto-racist rant, I’m going to conclude pretty quickly that the dude’s not worth listening to. Bernie effectively has a February 2016 join date for most of the country. Hillary is a '99er. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2016, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/34 "2016-02-05T16:15:42Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Because of the way people form opinions about people. We are Bayesians. I’ve known you for years now as a poster on this message board. If someone comes along and reveals your secret text messages showing you to have used some racial slurs, it is not going to cause me to radically revise my view of you because I’m incorporating that piece of evidence into a much larger body of evidence. By contrast, if a February 2016 join date posts some crypto-racist rant, I’m going to conclude pretty quickly that the dude’s not worth listening to. > > Bernie effectively has a February 2016 join date for most of the country. Hillary is a '99er. I dunno. The scandals Clinton has feed into the narrative that she’s untrustworthy, dishonest, and in it only for selfish reasons. The scandals that Sanders has feed into the narrative that he’s a socialist. Sanders might be a relative latecomer to the scene, but he comes with a strong brand. If someone joins the messageboard with the username RushisRight, and they post a screed about how evil liberals are, it’s not like that screed is going to change my opinion of them; the brand is already established. Even if you’re right, though, that folks don’t know much about Sanders, I’m still unconvinced. It’s probably true that this honeymoon nonsense will be processed differently from the Benghazi nonsense: the former will be an attempt to convince people of something they didn’t believe before (because they didn’t know Sanders much), whereas the latter will remind people of something they already believed (because they’ve been hearing these bad things for years). I don’t see that the established nature of Clinton’s “scandals” is a boon for her. Indeed, I see an attempt by some Clinton supporters to turn her decades of scandal into a feature, not a bug, and I think it’s a bit of a stretch. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2016, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/35 "2016-02-05T16:17:56Z")
Did Bernie go to the same Soviet Union as Horndog Bill went to? If “yes”, well, there you have it, the “smoking gub”! ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2016, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/36 "2016-02-05T16:24:10Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I dunno. The scandals Clinton has feed into the narrative that she’s untrustworthy, dishonest, and in it only for selfish reasons. The scandals that Sanders has feed into the narrative that he’s a socialist. Sanders might be a relative latecomer to the scene, but he comes with a strong brand. I agree that the match between scandal and narrative is important. Scandals that resonate with narratives are much more dangerous than others. In this case, I think both sets of scandals resonate with the narrative, but I think you characterize the anti-Sanders narrative overly charitably. **davida03801** ’s post is a better example of it. I think that factor is independent from the other factor I was discussing, which is the amount of evidence the individual already has about the person’s character. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I don’t see that the established nature of Clinton’s “scandals” is a boon for her. Indeed, I see an attempt by some Clinton supporters to turn her decades of scandal into a feature, not a bug, and I think it’s a bit of a stretch. I’m not arguing it’s a feature. I am making one specific argument: all else being equal, new scandals affect Bernie more than Hillary because people know less about him. As you say, that’s not the only factor. Other factors include the extent to which the scandal resonates with the narrative, and of course the merits of the scandal. The scandal addressed in the OP has very low merit and medium-level resonance, in my view. But as compared to a low merit, medium-resonance scandal concerning Clinton, the OP scandal will have more impact. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2016, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/37 "2016-02-05T16:27:43Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Cite that she admitted ignoring please for help? Please, it’s pleas. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2016, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/38 "2016-02-05T16:32:17Z")
> [@davida03801](#): > > Deep down Bernie is much more that a mild European Socialist. I think his real thoughts, that he dare not speak, are much more radical. That’s a good point. Why worry about what he actually has said and done when you can just imagine up some hidden agenda? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2016, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/39 "2016-02-05T16:36:59Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Not a fan of revolution as a political solution. Not even when there’s so much pollution in our institutions?! Any dilution is but prostitution! Go thou to the Aleutians, and seek absolution! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2016, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/40 "2016-02-05T17:08:47Z")
> [@davida03801](#): > > Deep down Bernie is much more that a mild European Socialist. I think his real thoughts, that he dare not speak, are much more radical. Cite for any slightest evidence from any point in his lengthy political career that there is **anything** Bernie Sanders dare not speak? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209.md?page=3)