# Bernie's Soviet "honeymoon" and trips to Nicaragua and Cuba are disqualifying. **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [February 5, 2016, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209 "2016-02-05T06:15:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2016, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/81 "2016-02-06T06:48:06Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I haven’t read the whole thread, but since my opinion is so valued here I thought I"d give it. > > Sanders’ honeymoon is not disqualifying at all, it isn’t even really a big deal. However, that and his rather kind words for left wing Latin American dictators will be used against him and deservedly so. But that’s not even disqualifying, IMO. I find nothing about Sanders disqualifying. I think Clinton has far more issues that approach that level of awfulness, starting with taking so much money from Wall Street for her personal enrichment. Yeah, nice try there, Bre’r Rabbit. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2016, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/82 "2016-02-06T06:48:56Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > “Bernie Sanders [doesn’t seem to believe in God.](http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2015/10/23/did-you-catch-how-bernie-sanders-responded-when-jimmy-kimmel-asked-do-you-believe-in-god/) But he definitely believes in socialism.” Belief in god or not is almost irrelevant in Judaism. You can be a practising Jew and an Atheist. Most jews would say that god doesn’t care if you believe in him or not as long as you live a righteous life. And the only people that care about this would never have voted for him anyway. You won’t flip anyone with this issue. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2016, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/83 "2016-02-06T06:56:27Z")
A practicing Jewish atheist? Never heard of such a creature. What is the point of the Law if you don’t believe in God? Are there actually kosher eating, Sabbath keeping Jews who don’t believe in God? I doubt it. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2016, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/84 "2016-02-06T07:01:02Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > Belief in god or not is almost irrelevant in Judaism. You can be a practising Jew and an Atheist. Most jews would say that god doesn’t care if you believe in him or not as long as you live a righteous life. And the only people that care about this would never have voted for him anyway. You won’t flip anyone with this issue. That opinion sounds wildly out of touch. [Per Gallup:](http://www.gallup.com/poll/155285/atheists-muslims-bias-presidential-candidates.aspx) > [@](#): > > While more than nine in 10 Americans would vote for a presidential candidate who is black, a woman, Catholic, Hispanic, or Jewish, significantly smaller percentages would vote for one who is an atheist (54%) or Muslim (58%). Americans’ willingness to vote for a Mormon (80%) or gay or lesbian (68%) candidate falls between these two extremes. I suppose you’ll say “hey, 54%, that’s all we need”. But it doesn’t work like that. You’ve got to look at the relative scale, and discount for people who would vote against someone for other reasons (Ayn Rand fans are atheists, and ultraconservative on economics, for instance), not to mention people who are reluctant to admit to a pollster that they will discriminate on \*any \*basis. Once you factor those things in, 54% is dismal, bottom of the heap. I can even think of two people right off the top of my head (my mother-in-law, and ex-MIL, both weekly-churchgoing, moderate swing voters married to Republicans) who would probably vote for Hillary but would \*\*never \*\*vote for an atheist. I do, however, agree with you–and disagree with **adaher** –about Jewish atheists. I’ve known several. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2016, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/85 "2016-02-06T07:03:02Z")
Jewish atheists are legion. Practicing Jewish atheists, not so much. YOu actually know Jewish atheists who adhere to the Law? ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2016, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/86 "2016-02-06T07:28:38Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > That opinion sounds wildly out of touch. [Per Gallup:](http://www.gallup.com/poll/155285/atheists-muslims-bias-presidential-candidates.aspx) Doesn’t matter, because as a Jew he pretty much gets a pass on this issue. As long as he doesn’t outright come out and say he’s an atheist most people are going to think of him as Jewish, which answers the religion question. And Yes I have a friend who is a practising Jew who doesn’t believe in God. It’s not unheard of. Actually he’d probably be classified as a Jewish agnostic, he thinks it doesn’t matter if God exists or not. He just thinks Jewish law makes sense as the way he wants to live. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2016, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/87 "2016-02-06T14:07:22Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I hope you’re not being purposely dishonest or disingenuous in your framing. Why is it that, when confronted with an opinion different from yours, you’re reduced to speculating about the dishonest motives of the person with that opinion? I’ve pointed this out several times, and you continue in this vein. It’s insulting, and I think you and I are done in this discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2016, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/88 "2016-02-06T14:27:26Z")
Advice we, on both sides of this issue, can use: [Hey Bernie and Hillary Supporters, Stop Being Dicks to Each Other](http://thedailybanter.com/2015/08/hey-bernie-and-hillary-supporters-stop-being-dicks-to-each-other/). If I find myself saying, “Sure, but–” and justifying why I should continue acting like a dick, actually, I should stop. Edit: whatever you do, don’t read the comments. They’ll make you weep. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2016, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/89 "2016-02-06T17:46:31Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Jewish atheists are legion. Practicing Jewish atheists, not so much. YOu actually know Jewish atheists who adhere to the Law? One of my best friends (and fellow ardent left-TRUMPist) is agnostic but also keeps Kosher and is part of his campus’s Hillel. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2016, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/90 "2016-02-06T20:41:09Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Why is it that, when confronted with an opinion different from yours, you’re reduced to speculating about the dishonest motives of the person with that opinion? I’ve pointed this out several times, and you continue in this vein. It’s insulting, and I think you and I are done in this discussion. I’m not “reduced” to anything. I’m just pointing out that you were ignoring or overlooking my repeated points that it isn’t just the Soviet trip but a whole combination of things. You were either willfully ignoring that and creating a straw man, or really struggling to comprehend things I stated clearly and repeatedly. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2016, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/91 "2016-02-07T02:10:13Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > One of my best friends (and fellow ardent left-TRUMPist) is agnostic but also keeps Kosher and is part of his campus’s Hillel. That I’ve seen. Atheists keeping kosher and not working on Sabbath I haven’t seen. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2016, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/92 "2016-02-07T02:34:59Z")
Apparently only 18% of people 18-29 voted in the Iowa primary and he still got 49%. If Sanders can get higher youth turnout nationally he’s viable both in the primaries and the general. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2016, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/93 "2016-02-07T02:37:55Z")
It’s easier for Sanders to appeal to black voters than to get more youth to turn out. Getting non-voters out is a much tougher haul than convincing reliable voters to support you. But thanks for the stat, it is fascinating that he’s so dominant among young voters. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2016, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/94 "2016-02-07T03:00:13Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > It’s easier for Sanders to appeal to black voters than to get more youth to turn out. Getting non-voters out is a much tougher haul than convincing reliable voters to support you. It’s much tougher yes, but Sanders seems to have an effective machine and a huge dedicated base that is pushing this hard. Go check out the posts about Sanders on Reddit where he has a huge following. Reddit gets 231 million unique users a month, so thats a considerable audience. Also considering Iowa was a caucus requiring you to be there for several hours, he should be able to get higher youth turnout for the other primaries which are simple ballots. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2016, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/95 "2016-02-07T03:04:37Z")
A Jewish friend of mine attends an atheist-friendly synagogue in Chicago. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2016, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/96 "2016-02-07T03:22:14Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > A Jewish friend of mine attends an atheist-friendly synagogue in Chicago. Anyway considering Bernie’s statements on spirituality he would either be an agnostic or believe in classical deism, he’s not an atheist. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2016, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/97 "2016-02-07T03:25:42Z")
If Gloria Steinem is such a feminist, why is she trying to claim that young women are supporting Bernie because he’s a man? Isn’t that an attack on women’s ownership of their own political opinions? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2016, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/98 "2016-02-07T03:30:29Z")
This thread reminds me of[a piece](http://www.theamericanconservative.com/millman/practicing-magnanimity-in-triumph/) _The American Conservative_ published when Nelson Mandela died: > [@](#): > > **Mandela Practiced Magnanimity In Triumph** > > By Noah Millman • December 6, 2013, 12:00 PM > > The tributes to Nelson Mandela are coming thick and fast, as well they should. Rather than add my own to the list, though, I’d like to suggest that we take those commendations to heart. > > Mandela is being praised for two qualities more than anything: his firmness and determination through decades of struggle for justice, and his extraordinary magnanimity in victory. Neither quality is particularly common, and both are highly praiseworthy—but they are particularly extraordinary in combination. > > And we are most likely to applaud the half of that combination that we can most easily see applying to us. So, those who thirst for justice are more likely to look up to his tenacity and uncompromising pursuit of right. And those who fear revolution are more likely to praise his eagerness to reach out to his former oppressors and integrate them into his new South African order. > > All of which has an unfortunate way of turning Mandela against our current opponents. Of telling those in power: will you really jail another Mandela if he comes among us? And of telling those who would overturn the established order: I can’t listen to you unless you promise to be as forgiving as he is if you win? > > It would be nice if we did the opposite. > > So, for example, there’s a substantial conservative record of support for the South African apartheid government during the Cold War, on the grounds that it was an ally against Communism and that the ANC had ties to Communist movements. Now could be a time for liberals to point to that record and demand its disavowal, and for conservatives to demand magnanimity and understanding for their prioritization of anti-Communism over anti-racism. > > But given the scale of the anti-Communist victory, wouldn’t it be more in tune with the moment for conservatives to be magnanimous, and say: you know, it’s entirely understandable why the ANC sought Communist support. Indeed, it’s entirely understandable why many groups fighting oppressive structures and regimes accepted or even sought the support of Soviet-backed groups during the Cold War. What looked like the most important moral question from the perspective of Washington would not have looked like the most important moral question from the perspective of Transkei, or any number of other places. **So maybe, now that the Soviet Union is dead and buried, we should stop harping on ties to Communists as some kind of unforgivable sin, in this case and in general.** > > Just a thought. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2016, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/99 "2016-02-07T04:36:38Z")
I see that LHoD and Sam Stone are in essential agreement about the attractiveness of a Bernie candidacy. I do not question LHoD’s sincerity. Nor do I question Sam’s judgement. LHoD is entirely sincere. Sam has sound political judgment… What? More seriously, > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Of course they will. Haters gonna hate, news at eleven. It’s more than that though. Experts agree that Bernie would be a weak candidate in November: the only disagreement is how weak he would be. [Vox asked 6 political scientists about Bernie’s viability. They were unanimous](http://www.vox.com/2016/2/5/10923304/bernie-sanders-general-election): [INDENT]“Under some unlikely circumstances, Sanders could win a general election. But nominating him would make it significantly more difficult for Democrats to keep the White House.”[/INDENT] > [@](#): > > This is what I’m unconvinced by. Haters gonna hate on Clinton, too, and I’m still not seeing that this attack on Sanders (Thirty years ago he honeymooned with Commies… Yet Sander’s supporters complain about Hilary’s [vicious attacks on Bernie. They truly haven’t seen anything yet](http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2016/02/bernie-vs-hillary-fight-kind-ridiculous). > [@](#): > > …I also genuinely think it’s because she plays faster and looser with the truth and shows more contempt for following strict ethical guidelines. She and Bill Clinton are similar politicians in this regard. I perceive that as the result of 30 years of right wing propaganda. Bill Clinton tried very hard to adapt difficult ideas for a mass audience: such behavior is the opposite of public dishonesty. (I disagree with his blowjob policy though.) Colin Powell and Rice received classified-after-the-fact documents on private emails as well, yet nobody accuses them of anything. Hillary _does_ make guarded comments in public _as she damn well should_. Democrats have yet to perfect the Teflon shield like Reagan and Trump. > [@](#): > > …acting like Bernie Sanders has a real chance is, I think, the best approach to politics, in much the same way that acting like free will is a thing is the best approach to ethics. I take a different approach. Here it is: Vote for Sanders in New Hampshire. Overton window. If Sanders loses in New Hampshire, vote for Sanders until he wins at least one state. Afterwards, _most_ should vote for Clinton and hope Bernie wins _more_ than one state. However. If you are among the 5% most liberal folks in the country or among the most 15% liberal folks in the Democratic Party, vote for Sanders. This might be your once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to vote for a leftie who actually has a grip on the realities of the US political system. Bernie does. He’s running an issue based campaign. _As he should._ Because it’s not about Bernie. It’s about expanding the Overton window, energizing the base, pulling under 40s into politics and persuading a small number of middle class Republicans to switch parties and vote in their own economic interest. Most far lefties are like Nader: they are actively harmful to the progressive cause. Bernie is not. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > …except for Clinton supporters desperate for some way to attack Sanders while appearing to piously just care about the general election, and superduperrightwingers who think Clinton killed Vince Foster. To be clear, if I thought Bernie had a 3 percentage point vote advantage over Hillary in the general, supporting him would be a no-brainer for me. And I’d most probably go with Bernie at 2 percentage points. What if they were equally strong in November? At that point I’d have to think hard about the decison (now I don’t - it’s an easy choice for Hillary). Sure Bernie is leftish, but he hasn’t laid down any legislative base of support. And Hillary has experience coming out of her ears, as well as absolutely no illusions about the opposition. She works well with people and inspires loyalty among her staff. She doesn’t give up - she’s a workhorse who keeps plugging away. She’s not a show horse though: she will be a mediocre candidate. Luckily the Republicans show no signs of advancing a neuro-typical nominee. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2016, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209/100 "2016-02-07T04:47:28Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Experts agree that Bernie would be a weak candidate in November I see no reason why we should believe those experts since they also said six months ago that Trump had no chance of getting the Republican nomination. Nothing about this election cycle is typical, so they’re just reading tea leaves. They’re also part of the political machine which wants Clinton to win, of course they’re going to down play Bernie’s chances. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bernies-soviet-honeymoon-and-trips-to-nicaragua-and-cuba-are-disqualifying/745209.md?page=6)