# Berwick-upon-Tweed, special legal status? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 10, 2010, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/berwick-upon-tweed-special-legal-status/546193 "2010-07-10T05:03:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2010, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/berwick-upon-tweed-special-legal-status/546193/1 "2010-07-10T05:03:50Z")
I’ve been reading up on the English Civil War lately, and I came across this, in the Parliamentary bill abolishing the monarchy: > [@](#): > > And it is hereby further enacted and declared, notwithstanding anything contained in this Act, no person or persons of what condition and quality soever, within the commonwealth of England and Ireland, dominion of Wales, the islands of Guernsey and Jersey, and town of Berwick-upon-Tweed, shall be discharged from the obedience and subjection which he and they owe to the Government of this nation, as it is now declared, but all and every of them shall in all things render and perform the same, as of right is due unto the supreme authority hereby declared to reside in this and the successive Representatives of the people of this nation, and in them only. So, I get why Wales, Guernsey, and Jersey are singled out, but why Berwick-upon-Tweed? Wouldn’t thaqt be part of “the commonwealth of England and Ireland”? ---
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2010, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/berwick-upon-tweed-special-legal-status/546193/2 "2010-07-10T05:42:14Z")
Berwick-upon-Tweed is smack between Scotland and England. It changed hands 14 times in the two centuries up to 1482. Under the Treaty of Perpetual Peace (“perpetuity” apparently being 11 years) between Henry VII of England and James IV of Scotland in 1502, Berwick was given a special status as being “of” the Kingdom of England but not “in” it. In 1603, Berwick was the first English town to greet James VI of Scotland on his way to being crowned James I of England - upon crossing Berwick Bridge, James is supposed to have declared the town’s belonging to neither England nor Scotland but being part of the united Crown’s domain. In 1639 Charles I negotiated a settlement with General Alexander Leslie, “the Pacification of Berwick,” under which the King agreed that all disputed questions (something to do with the Church of Scotland) should be referred to another General Assembly or to the Scottish Parliament. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2010, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/berwick-upon-tweed-special-legal-status/546193/3 "2010-07-10T05:45:39Z")
It is right on the border of England and Scotland, and at some points in history it has been considered ambiguous as to which it belonged to. See [Berwick-upon-Tweed - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berwick-upon-Tweed#Middle_Ages_and_Scottish_rule) Worth noting also is the section on relations with Russia. Wiki says the story is apocryphal (which may well be), but I can remember hearing it when one of the Soviet leaders (Kosygin, maybe?) paid a state visit to Britain and gave a speech in Berwick promising not to attack, despite the state of war that existed between them and Russia. ---
**Author:** ![Rayne\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/df705f/32.png) [@Rayne\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rayne_Man)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2010, 9:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/berwick-upon-tweed-special-legal-status/546193/4 "2010-07-10T09:56:04Z")
And just to confuse matters, Berwick Rangers football team play in the Scottish League. ---
**Author:** ![mascaroni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dc4da7/32.png) [@mascaroni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mascaroni)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2010, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/berwick-upon-tweed-special-legal-status/546193/5 "2010-07-11T17:29:49Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > It is right on the border of England and Scotland, and at some points in history it has been considered ambiguous as to which it belonged to. See [Berwick-upon-Tweed - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berwick-upon-Tweed#Middle_Ages_and_Scottish_rule) > > Worth noting also is the section on relations with Russia. Wiki says the story is apocryphal (which may well be), but I can remember hearing it when one of the Soviet leaders (Kosygin, maybe?) paid a state visit to Britain and gave a speech in Berwick promising not to attack, despite the state of war that existed between them and Russia. Veering off-topic, a similar thing happened with The Isles of Scilly and Holland. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three\_Hundred\_and\_Thirty\_Five\_Years](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Hundred_and_Thirty_Five_Years)’\_War The Mouse That Roared… ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2010, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/berwick-upon-tweed-special-legal-status/546193/6 "2010-07-11T17:35:42Z")
Everything about the UK is just so “cute”. And I mean that in a good way. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2010, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/berwick-upon-tweed-special-legal-status/546193/7 "2010-07-11T19:54:59Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > Everything about the UK is just so “cute”. And I mean that in a good way. Except for the Civil War itself, which was nasty and brutal. ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2010, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/berwick-upon-tweed-special-legal-status/546193/8 "2010-07-11T20:08:20Z")
This ambiguity of Berwick’s status seems to have vanished from more recent Parliamentary Bills. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2010, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/berwick-upon-tweed-special-legal-status/546193/9 "2010-07-11T20:14:32Z")
> [@Mk\_VII](#): > > This ambiguity of Berwick’s status seems to have vanished from more recent Parliamentary Bills. Was the special status perhaps revoked by the Act of Union (which was, after all, AFTER the document in the OP was enacted). ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2010, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/berwick-upon-tweed-special-legal-status/546193/10 "2010-07-11T22:44:46Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Except for the Civil War itself, which was nasty and brutal. C’mon, "Roundheads? How cute is that? ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2010, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/berwick-upon-tweed-special-legal-status/546193/11 "2010-07-11T23:20:54Z")
I seem to remember a thread about a border town that was popular for quickie weddings or quickie divorces, for some weird reason. Was that Berwick? ---
**Author:** ![mittu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@mittu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mittu)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2010, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/berwick-upon-tweed-special-legal-status/546193/12 "2010-07-11T23:34:57Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > I seem to remember a thread about a border town that was popular for quickie weddings or quickie divorces, for some weird reason. Was that Berwick? That would probably be Gretna Green, it became popular for English people to elope to Scotland to marry because English law prevented people under 21 getting married without the consent of both parents, this law did not apply in Scotland. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/berwick-upon-tweed-special-legal-status/546193/13 "2010-07-12T00:18:32Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Was the special status perhaps revoked by the Act of Union (which was, after all, AFTER the document in the OP was enacted). I doubt it, since the “war with Russia” story arose in connection with the Crimean war, in the 19th century. Even though the story may be false, it derives its plausibility from Berwick having an ambiguous status. Anyway, even though the Act of Union may have untied England and Scotland politically, they remained (and still remain) distinct countries, with, for instance, different legal and educational systems. It now seems to be established that Berwick is in England. According to [its Wikipedia entry](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berwick-upon-Tweed#Modern_history), however, although it had long been treated, in most circumstances, as a _de facto_ part of England, that status was not formalized (and then only in an offhanded way) until 1972. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/berwick-upon-tweed-special-legal-status/546193/14 "2010-07-12T00:25:29Z")
> [@mittu](#): > > That would probably be Gretna Green, it became popular for English people to elope to Scotland to marry because English law prevented people under 21 getting married without the consent of both parents, this law did not apply in Scotland. That sounds familiar. I think you’re right. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/berwick-upon-tweed-special-legal-status/546193/15 "2010-07-12T00:45:17Z")
It wasn’t just the consent issue. English law also required advance public notice of a wedding (“publication of the banns”), so weddings could not be celebrated either (a) discreetly or (b) quickly. Scottish weddings could be both. Gretna Green was the first Scottish village on the principal mail coach route from London to Edinburgh; hence the first convenient place at which travellers on that route could celebrate a wedding under Scottish rules.