# Bess Truman comes off as a disagreeable & bigoted bitch. Any redeeming qualities?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bess-truman-comes-off-as-a-disagreeable-bigoted-bitch-any-redeeming-qualities/471798
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [November 8, 2008, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bess-truman-comes-off-as-a-disagreeable-bigoted-bitch-any-redeeming-qualities/471798 "2008-11-08T12:51:15Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2008, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bess-truman-comes-off-as-a-disagreeable-bigoted-bitch-any-redeeming-qualities/471798/1 "2008-11-08T12:51:15Z")
Per [the wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bess_Truman)and [this vignette](http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=2093EF6A-5741-446B-95CC-E96E5CF07006) she does not seem to be an especially nice or gracious person. Is there more to her story than this bitchiness and bigotry?
> [@](#):
>
> Years after Truman left office, Susskind was working with the former president on a television documentary. Wrote Humes:
>
> Susskind said that each morning he would arrive at Truman’s house at Independence [Missouri]. He would wait on the porch on a cold February day while Mrs. Truman went to inform her husband of his arrival. After about the fourth morning, he asked the president in his walk why he was never asked inside.
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> “You’re a Jew, David, and no Jew has ever been in the house.”
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> A nonplussed Susskind replied, “I am amazed that you who recognized Israel and championed the integration of the army would say such a thing!”
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> “David,” he explained, “this is not the White House – it’s the Wallace [Bess Truman’s maiden name] house. Bess runs it, and there’s never been a Jew inside the house in her or her mother’s lifetime.”
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### Author:  [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2008, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bess-truman-comes-off-as-a-disagreeable-bigoted-bitch-any-redeeming-qualities/471798/2 "2008-11-08T14:05:22Z")
What’s so unreasonable about that?
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### Author:  [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2008, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bess-truman-comes-off-as-a-disagreeable-bigoted-bitch-any-redeeming-qualities/471798/3 "2008-11-08T15:08:58Z")
Moving thread from IMHO to The BBQ Pit.
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### Author:  [@Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Speaker_for_the_Dead)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2008, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bess-truman-comes-off-as-a-disagreeable-bigoted-bitch-any-redeeming-qualities/471798/4 "2008-11-08T15:18:50Z")
> [@VarlosZ](#):
>
> What’s so unreasonable about that?
It’s unreasonable because she only refused him because he was a Jew. There’s nothing inherent in being Jewish that makes someone an undesirable houseguest, unless you live in a pork palace.
There was a previous thread on this, I thought. I’ll do a search.
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### Author:  [@Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Speaker_for_the_Dead)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2008, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bess-truman-comes-off-as-a-disagreeable-bigoted-bitch-any-redeeming-qualities/471798/5 "2008-11-08T15:26:28Z")
[Here’s](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=465802&highlight=truman+jewish) the previous thread. It only gets to the Bess Truman topic indirectly, but I recall enjoying reading it.
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### Author:  [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2008, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bess-truman-comes-off-as-a-disagreeable-bigoted-bitch-any-redeeming-qualities/471798/6 "2008-11-08T15:49:06Z")
> [@Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](#):
>
> It’s unreasonable because she only refused him because he was a Jew. There’s nothing inherent in being Jewish that makes someone an undesirable houseguest, unless you live in a pork palace.
>
> There was a previous thread on this, I thought. I’ll do a search.
It is not unreasonable for that time and place. Blacks would be left outside, or met at the back door in many areas of the country at that time as well.
Don’t use todays PCness to look at the past. Think of it as going through the looking glass.
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### Author:  [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2008, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bess-truman-comes-off-as-a-disagreeable-bigoted-bitch-any-redeeming-qualities/471798/7 "2008-11-08T15:54:02Z")
> [@aruvqan](#):
>
> It is not unreasonable for that time and place. Blacks would be left outside, or met at the back door in many areas of the country at that time as well.
>
> Don’t use todays PCness to look at the past. Think of it as going through the looking glass.
And there were many people who acted much, much better than that. It would have been very far from unthinkable for Bess Truman to treat Susskind as a human being, and invite him in on a cold day. Many people at that time surely would have.
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### Author:  [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2008, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bess-truman-comes-off-as-a-disagreeable-bigoted-bitch-any-redeeming-qualities/471798/8 "2008-11-08T15:54:41Z")
It’s bigoted and horribly offensive by our standards, I agree, but doesn’t surprise me that people would be anti semetic. At the time, though, would they have explicitly come out and said it like that, though? That, to me, is pretty shocking, I must admit.
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### Author:  [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2008, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bess-truman-comes-off-as-a-disagreeable-bigoted-bitch-any-redeeming-qualities/471798/9 "2008-11-08T16:03:39Z")
In his clumsy, unsophisticated way, Truman retreated behind the plausible excuse of ethnic prejudice to avoid mentioning the true problem: David Susskind smelled like bad cheese.
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### Author:  [@Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Speaker_for_the_Dead)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2008, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bess-truman-comes-off-as-a-disagreeable-bigoted-bitch-any-redeeming-qualities/471798/10 "2008-11-08T16:07:15Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#):
>
> It’s bigoted and horribly offensive by our standards, I agree, but doesn’t surprise me that people would be anti semetic. At the time, though, would they have explicitly come out and said it like that, though? That, to me, is pretty shocking, I must admit.
Harry Truman wasn’t an anti-Semite, though, so it is somewhat unreal that the man who championed the creation of Israel would bow to his wife in this regard, even when he was close friends with other Jews. These are supposed to be some of the most sophisticated an educated people in the country (the president and his wife), yet you see attitudes that were far from ubiquitous by the end of the Second World War.
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### Author:  [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2008, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bess-truman-comes-off-as-a-disagreeable-bigoted-bitch-any-redeeming-qualities/471798/11 "2008-11-08T16:35:17Z")
> [@Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](#):
>
> Harry Truman wasn’t an anti-Semite, though, so it is somewhat unreal that the man who championed the creation of Israel would bow to his wife in this regard, even when he was close friends with other Jews. These are supposed to be some of the most sophisticated an educated people in the country (the president and his wife), yet you see attitudes that were far from ubiquitous by the end of the Second World War.
Well, I meant…I could see her disliking him for being Jewish, but that she’d actually make him stand on the porch, like a dog? That’s mind boggling. What if he’d come in a group of people–would she actually have said, you’re not allowed in?
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### Author:  [@Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Speaker_for_the_Dead)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2008, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bess-truman-comes-off-as-a-disagreeable-bigoted-bitch-any-redeeming-qualities/471798/12 "2008-11-08T16:47:43Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#):
>
> Well, I meant…I could see her disliking him for being Jewish, but that she’d actually make him stand on the porch, like a dog? That’s mind boggling. What if he’d come in a group of people–would she actually have said, you’re not allowed in?
Oops, sorry! I was actually agreeing with you. I think her treatment of him was horrible, given her station, her associations (i.e. being married to Harry), and the fact that this wasn’t Medieval Europe, where antisemitism was a given.
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### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2008, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bess-truman-comes-off-as-a-disagreeable-bigoted-bitch-any-redeeming-qualities/471798/13 "2008-11-08T17:37:32Z")
> [@aruvqan](#):
>
> It is not unreasonable for that time and place. Blacks would be left outside, or met at the back door in many areas of the country at that time as well.
It was not _uncommon_ for that time and place. By any standard, it was absolutely unreasonable.
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### Author:  [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2008, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bess-truman-comes-off-as-a-disagreeable-bigoted-bitch-any-redeeming-qualities/471798/14 "2008-11-08T17:52:38Z")
> [@Miller](#):
>
> It was not _uncommon_ for that time and place. By any standard, it was absolutely unreasonable.
AS it was not uncommon, it also wasnt unreasonable for it to happen.
Blacks and jews being barred from buying land in certain communities was not uncommon, and not unreasonable at that time either. It was unjust _theoretically_ but if someone asked why the property hadnt been sold yet and you responded the only people wanting to buy it were black, you woupd pretty much get a noncommital Oh, pity that, Hope you have better luck this week.
Don’t underestimate peoples _actual_ level of prejudice and the influence in their actions. They may have nothing agains blacks or jews personally at work, but not living next door to them …
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### Author:  [@WF\_Tomba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WF_Tomba)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2008, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bess-truman-comes-off-as-a-disagreeable-bigoted-bitch-any-redeeming-qualities/471798/15 "2008-11-08T17:53:10Z")
The fact that Susskind didn’t realize why he was not invited in suggests to me that it was not the norm for that time. If it had been, he would have been accustomed to being left on porches and would not have had to ask.
Also, I would venture to suggest that refusing to invite in a close associate of your husband’s, even for a somewhat common reason, might indeed have been seen as unreasonable at the time.
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### Author:  [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2008, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bess-truman-comes-off-as-a-disagreeable-bigoted-bitch-any-redeeming-qualities/471798/16 "2008-11-08T17:54:43Z")
> [@Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](#):
>
> Oops, sorry! I was actually agreeing with you. I think her treatment of him was horrible, given her station, her associations (i.e. being married to Harry), and the fact that this wasn’t Medieval Europe, where antisemitism was a given.
Ah, gotcha. Misread.
I guess I always assumed that people wouldn’t act racist on the surface, but would be in their intentions. Like you might not be able to buy a house in a certain area if you were Jewish, but people wouldn’t come right out and say why–more like, “Oh, I have no more houses to show you.”
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### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2008, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bess-truman-comes-off-as-a-disagreeable-bigoted-bitch-any-redeeming-qualities/471798/17 "2008-11-08T18:06:36Z")
> [@aruvqan](#):
>
> AS it was not uncommon, it also wasnt unreasonable for it to happen.
There’s a reason “uncommon” and “unreasonable” are two different words, and that’s because they have different definitions.
And let’s keep in mind that this “different time” we’re talking about was _1961_.
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### Author:  [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2008, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bess-truman-comes-off-as-a-disagreeable-bigoted-bitch-any-redeeming-qualities/471798/18 "2008-11-08T19:37:33Z")
> [@aruvqan](#):
>
> It is not unreasonable for that time and place. Blacks would be left outside, or met at the back door in many areas of the country at that time as well.
>
> Don’t use todays PCness to look at the past. Think of it as going through the looking glass.
We’re talking about 1961 Missouri, not 1861 Mississippi. You’d think that someone who’d been the post-war First Lady of the U.S. would be more worldly than that. Eleanor Roosevelt preceded Bess Truman, and wouldn’t have left a guest standing out in the cold.
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### Author:  [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2008, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bess-truman-comes-off-as-a-disagreeable-bigoted-bitch-any-redeeming-qualities/471798/19 "2008-11-08T19:40:12Z")
> [@panache45](#):
>
> We’re talking about 1961 Missouri, not 1861 Mississippi. You’d think that someone who’d been the post-war First Lady of the U.S. would be more worldly than that. Eleanor Roosevelt preceded Bess Truman, and wouldn’t have left a guest standing out in the cold.
That’s kind of my point. Re the wiki beyond being a reluctant and somewhat ungracious hostess, she just seems kind of mean and crass.
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### Author:  [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2008, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bess-truman-comes-off-as-a-disagreeable-bigoted-bitch-any-redeeming-qualities/471798/20 "2008-11-08T21:22:23Z")
> [@panache45](#):
>
> We’re talking about 1961 Missouri, not 1861 Mississippi. You’d think that someone who’d been the post-war First Lady of the U.S. would be more worldly than that. Eleanor Roosevelt preceded Bess Truman, and wouldn’t have left a guest standing out in the cold.
Dude, Shelley v. Kramer was in 1945 … The United States Supreme Court held that racially-based restrictive covenants are, on their face, not invalid under the Fourteenth Amendment. Private parties may voluntarily abide by the terms of a restrictive covenant, but they may not seek judicial enforcement of such a covenant, because enforcement by the courts would constitute state action. Since such state action would necessarily be discriminatory, the enforcement of a racially-based restrictive covenant in a state court would violate the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. [yoinked out of my con law book] and in 1962 Lombard v Louisiana went all the way to the supreme court to force desegregation of public accomodations [hotels, stores, businesses and schools in general.]
Racial issues were going to court in the 50s and 60s…Prejudice didnt magically _end_ just because.
Religion is just as hot a button as race, at least where jewishness was considered. We and pretty much every other country in the world refused to let german and polish jews in. They got palestine from sheer GUILT over the holocaust. We are still antisemetic in the US … [Index of Anti-Semetic Beliefs](http://stevebaum.com/pdf/old+new.pdf) this is the current one, but if you dig back it is based on a periodic study starting in _1964_ WARNING:PDF
I do not find Truman’s wife’s behavior untypical. Rude, yes. Untypical? Not entirely. I have heard all sorts of unkind remarks from my grandmother’s generation growing up in the 60s and 70s. I can remember the migrant kids not being allowed to sit with us or play with us on the playground in the late 60s in small town western NY [mainly blacks and mulattos. I dont really remember any hispanics or orientals.]
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