# Best case scenarios for Iraq **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 18, 2003, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-case-scenarios-for-iraq/202418 "2003-09-18T17:41:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2003, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-case-scenarios-for-iraq/202418/41 "2003-09-22T14:03:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gorsnak \* > \*\*This might make sense. Maybe. _ **If** _ Iraq were the source of the wasps. However, insofar as the wasps have a source, it’s Saudi freaking Arabia. So to follow up on your analogy, by invading Iraq, the US has in effect hammered on the wall next to the wasp nest. Really, really bright. I can see you have a profitable career as an exterminator ahead of you. :rolleyes: > > Why, tell me, why do you persist in parrotting the Bushista **lie** that Iraq had _anything_ to do with terrorist attacks on Americans? \*\* President Bush has never stated that Iraq was responsible for 9/11. However, Iraq IS the source of the problem and they have repeatedly attacked US aircraft in the no-fly zone as well as attempted to assasinate a former president. It’s true the Wahabis are one of the leading problems, it is also true that they focused on the US because of troop deployment in Saudi Arabia. The troops are there because Iraq posed a permanent, worldwide threat to it’s neighbors. As the UN’s personal police force we could have stayed in the region forever a la South Korea. However, 9/11 changed that. And I would chastise you for your parrot comments. Simply having the same thought process does not make someone a parrot. I could easily accuse you of seminar Bush-bashing when you use jingoistic words like “Bushista”. But I won’t. I allow you your opinion and will argue for/or against it on it’s merits. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2003, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-case-scenarios-for-iraq/202418/42 "2003-09-22T14:51:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Magiver \* > \*\* However, Iraq IS the source of the problem and they have repeatedly attacked US aircraft in the no-fly zone as well as attempted to assasinate a former president. > \*\* How many of those planes did they actually shoot down? Are you proposing that these incidences are examples of immanent threats to the US that’re worthy of the umpteen billion dollar war we’re fighting? ---
**Author:** ![cainxinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7bcc69/32.png) [@cainxinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cainxinth)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2003, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-case-scenarios-for-iraq/202418/43 "2003-09-22T15:41:32Z")
Sorry I haven’t been around to debate in my own OP… it’s been a long weekend. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by bovinespy \* > \*\*Does Islam figure at all as a component of this social machinery? > > And as per “Western hegemonic exploitation of oil resources”, the natives didn’t seem to have too much use for the black stuff until some wacky Westerner came up with that whole internal combustion engine thing… \*\* Say what a terrific idea… let’s point the finger at Islam. That way not only are we unjustifiably stigmatizing 1 billion (with a ‘B’) people as current or potential terrorists, we are discrediting an entire religion. That shouldn’t piss anyone off. As for the oil, I’m not certain what your point is. We invented the use for it so therefore it must belong to us? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by adaher \* > \*\*The idea is not that the regimes will change, but the example of a prosperous, free Iraq will make the PEOPLE want to change the regimes, much as was done in Eastern Europe. > > I don’t know if it will work or not, I’m just trying to explain what the administration is thinking. \*\* I agree with you that this is part of the admin’s plan. The other part being, I think, that we need to be proactive rather than reactive no matter how risky or ill thought out our actions are. Personally, I think it is far worse than just irresponsible. It’s banking our lives on little more than wishful thinking. * * * I felt the need to address those two posts right off the bat, and now that I’ve read the rest of the thread I want to add a few other points. First, as **Desmostylus** pointed out Bush did in fact ignore the threat of MENA terrorism intially, for crying out loud he all but promised not to get involved in any foreign affairs during his campaign. Second, the arguments that either Afghanistan or Iraq is somehow on the road to prosperity, peace, or democracy is highly spurious, which is probably why there haven’t been any cites posted to validate those claims. In fact, do a Google news search for either of those two nations and you’ll find plenty of articles about ongoing battles and an apparent dearth of heartwarming stories about two newly liberated nations striding bravely into a hopeful future. Lastly, as I mention in the OP I think that even if Iraq by some miracle is transformed into a democratic paradise it still leaves Saudi Arabia, Iran, Sudan, and a dozen other nations that are not just going to follow suit purely out of good will. Even if the masses are encouraged to revolt is the US going to support them? Is the US going to effectively declare war against every regime in the ME? Would we handle the situation like Cold War era Afghanistan, by arming and training guerrillas? We all know how that one worked out. What exactly is the Iraq endgame? Where do we (or the Iraqi’s for that matter) benefit from all this? ---
**Author:** ![SunTzu2U](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@SunTzu2U](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SunTzu2U)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2003, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-case-scenarios-for-iraq/202418/44 "2003-09-29T22:57:24Z")
Try reading this link: [http://www.shreveporttimes.com/html/2C346DCA-132E-4994-B4CB-D62B3BEF0399.shtml](http://www.shreveporttimes.com/html/2C346DCA-132E-4994-B4CB-D62B3BEF0399.shtml) ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2003, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-case-scenarios-for-iraq/202418/45 "2003-09-30T01:00:28Z")
Try reading this link: [http://www.thenation.com/capitalgames/index.mhtml?bid=3&pid=977](http://www.thenation.com/capitalgames/index.mhtml?bid=3&pid=977) > [@](#): > > [Zinni]…addressed a forum sponsored by the U.S. Naval Institute and the Marine Corps Association. > > “ **We’re in danger of failing,** ” > "\*\*Right now, in a place like Iraq, you’re dealing with Jihadists that are coming in to raise hell, crime on the streets that’s rampant, ex-Ba’athists that still running around, and the potential now for this country to fragment: Shi’ia on Shi’ia, Shi’ia on Sunni, Kurd on Turkomen. It’s a powder keg. > > I just got back from Jordan. I talked to a number of Iraqis there. And what I hear scares me even more that what I read in the newspaper. > > Resources are needed, a strategy is needed, a plan. This is a different kind of conflict. War fighting is one element of it.\*\*" > He said…Iraq…has landed the United States into the middle of assorted “culture wars” in the Middle East. “ **We don’t understand that culture,** ” he remarked. “**I’ve spent the last 15 years of my life in this part of the world. And I’ll tell you, every time I hear…one of the dilettantes back here speak about this region of the world, they don’t have a clue. They don’t understand what makes them tick. They don’t understand where they are in their own history. They don’t understand what our role is… > We are great at dealing with the tactical problems–the killing and the breaking. We are lousy at solving the strategic problems; having a strategic plan, understanding about regional and global security and what it takes to weld that and to shape it and to move forward.**” > “ **We should be…extremely proud of what our people did out there…It kills me when I hear of the continuing casualties and the sacrifice that’s being made. It also kills me when I hear someone say that, well, each one of those is a personal tragedy, but in the overall scheme of things, they’re insignificant statistically.** ” > “**When we put [our enlisted men and women] in harm’s way, it had better count for something, It can’t be because some policy wonk back here has a brain fart of an idea of a strategy that isn’t thought out.**” > U.S. troops, he said, “ **should never be put on a battlefield without a strategic plan, not only for the fighting–our generals will take care of that–but for the aftermath and winning that war. Where are we, the American people, if we accept this, if we accept this level of sacrifice without that level of planning? Almost everyone in this room, of my contemporaries–our feelings and our sensitivities were forged on the battlefields of Vietnam, where we heard the garbage and lies, and we saw the sacrifice. We swore never again would we do that. We swore never again would we allow it to happen. And I ask you, is it happening again? And you’re going to have to answer that question, just like the American people are.** ” ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2003, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-case-scenarios-for-iraq/202418/46 "2003-09-30T02:59:48Z")
What could be worse than being a US soldier now in Iraq ? You got no plan… no clear objective… no timetable or set dates. No training for dealing with civilians and peacekeeping… no Saddam. You dont understand the language or the culture… and whats worse… clearly the politicians arent into solving the problem. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2003, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-case-scenarios-for-iraq/202418/47 "2003-09-30T18:45:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Magiver \* > President Bush has never stated that Iraq was responsible for 9/11. No, but he sure as hell implied the living daylights out of it, by uttering “9/11” or “al-Qaeda” every time he mentioned the words “Iraq” and “Saddam Hussein.” How else would 69% of the American populace believe the two are linked? > [@](#): > > However, Iraq IS the source of the problem As I recall, even the CIA didn’t buy that one before the war. > [@](#): > > and they have repeatedly attacked US aircraft in the no-fly zone as well as attempted to assasinate a former president. Also IIRC, last I heard the “Saddam tried to assasinate a US President” bit was bullstuff. Right up there with the plastic shredders and babies-thrown-out-of-incubator myths. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2003, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-case-scenarios-for-iraq/202418/48 "2003-09-30T19:07:27Z")
Besides the US has clearly tried to assassinate Saddam several times… 🙂 So much for complaining about “Saddam tried to kill Bush Sr.” ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2003, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-case-scenarios-for-iraq/202418/49 "2003-09-30T19:45:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Magiver \* > \*\*However, Iraq IS the source of the problem… \*\* I missed this first time. Which problem are you referring to? ---
**Author:** ![Roland\_Saul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/58f4c7/32.png) [@Roland\_Saul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roland_Saul)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2003, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-case-scenarios-for-iraq/202418/50 "2003-09-30T22:50:47Z")
This one made me laugh out loud: From SunTzu2U “It has been national policy to conserve our oil resources and use the resources of other nations for many years and many administrations.” Bingo. Force other countries to sell theirs to us real cheap, and when theirs is gone…BLAM!! We can screw 'em LARGE!!! Another shining moment of altruistic foreign policy. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![SunTzu2U](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@SunTzu2U](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SunTzu2U)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2003, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-case-scenarios-for-iraq/202418/51 "2003-09-30T23:20:32Z")
That has been the policy since WWII Roland. It was supported through every administration democratic and republican. What won WWII for us was the fact that we bled the Axis powers dry of all their resources to wage war. Learning from their mistakes the US has since always taken a conservationist view towards its resources so that when the next war happens we will not be without resources. There is nothing altruistic at all. Its more of a self preservationist thought. Don’t you want to have a government look out for your needs? The policy was never to be used as an economic weapon. Rather as retaining the resources for that time when they were needed in the face of adversity. The reserves would not be sold to other countries but rather used here and abroad for our benefit. Laugh all you want Roland but I would prefer to be with the haves and not the have nots. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-case-scenarios-for-iraq/202418.md?page=2)