# Best film noirs **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 30, 2018, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-film-noirs/818812 "2018-07-30T13:43:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2018, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-film-noirs/818812/21 "2018-07-30T17:40:54Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > In hard-boiled detective movies like _The Big Sleep_, _The Long Goodbye_, or _The Maltese Falcon_ the protagonist is following a code. It’s not easy to follow that code and the protagonist usually suffers for doing so. But generally, the protagonist survives and “wins” in the end (even if it’s often just a technical win and the protagonist isn’t happy with having won). > > In film noir movies like _Detour_, _Double Indemnity_, or _They Live by Night_ you have a protagonist who breaks a rule. The rest of the story is showing the consequences of that, usually with the protagonist ending up dead. Even in _D.O.A._ - which is often described as the story of an innocent victim trying to solve his own poisoning - the story starts with Frank Bigelow going to a seedy nightclub while he’s on a business trip. > > So both genres serve as morality tales but they’re telling two different stories. Wiki disagrees with you, as does the general definition of film noir. The essence of the genre is pessimism, fatalism and menace. Breaking rules doesn’t enter into it, only mood. That doesn’t meant that rules won’t be broken by the protagonist, just that the mood is dark throughout. ---
**Author:** ![astrulukcasey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/da6949/32.png) [@astrulukcasey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astrulukcasey)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2018, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-film-noirs/818812/22 "2018-07-30T17:50:13Z")
Was gone with the wind one??? Times have changed it has altered what i remember it too be lol:eek: ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2018, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-film-noirs/818812/23 "2018-07-30T17:58:21Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > Shouldn’t the plural be “films noir”? Films noirs. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2018, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-film-noirs/818812/24 "2018-07-30T18:19:11Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > Wiki disagrees with you, as does the general definition of film noir. The essence of the genre is pessimism, fatalism and menace. Breaking rules doesn’t enter into it, only mood. That doesn’t meant that rules won’t be broken by the protagonist, just that the mood is dark throughout. Anybody can write for Wikipedia. So you tend to get the popular definitions rather than nuanced ones. If mood and lighting is the defining feature of film noir, is _Dracula_ a film noir? Is _A Nightmare on Elm Street_ a film noir? ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2018, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-film-noirs/818812/25 "2018-07-30T18:19:44Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > Shouldn’t the plural be “films noir”? > [@DPRK](#): > > Films noirs. Yes, this was my intent. I forgot to add one of the s’s and stared in horror when the thread title appeared. :eek: Too bad Edits are disallowed for titles. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2018, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-film-noirs/818812/26 "2018-07-30T18:21:53Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > _Out of the Past_ has a protagonist making a mistake in the past and paying for it in the present. ”How big a chump can you get to be? I was finding out.” Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Dropo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ce7236/32.png) [@Dropo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dropo)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2018, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-film-noirs/818812/27 "2018-07-30T18:23:28Z")
I have long understood the term “film noir” to refer to elements of narrative and visual style – i.e., not a genre - that hit a peak in the post-WWII period. Imo, _Out of the Past_ (1947), _Kiss Me Deadly_ (1955) and _Touch of Evil_ (1958) are the three films that best exemplify “film noir.” Other U.S. titles not mentioned, but worth viewing: _You Only Live Once_ (1937) _Stranger on the Third Floor_ (1940) – Often called “the first true film noir” _This Gun for Hire_ (1942) \*The Locket \*(1947) _The Big Clock_ (1948) _The Glass Key_ (1949) _The Set Up_ (1949) _Gun Crazy_ (1950) \* A Lady without Passport\* (1950) _His Kind of Woman_ (1951) _The Narrow Margin_ (1952) _The Sniper_ (1952) _The Burglar_ (1957) _The Lineup_ (1958) ETA: \*Reign of Terror \*(1950) - A French Revolution-set film noir, and one of the darkest lit movies ever made. FILM NOIR IN COLOR _Leave Her to Heaven_ (1945) _Niagara_ (1953) _Slightly Scarlet_ (1956) ---
**Author:** ![Soul\_Brother\_Number\_Two](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/soul_brother_number_two/32/3515_2.png) [@Soul\_Brother\_Number\_Two](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Soul_Brother_Number_Two)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2018, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-film-noirs/818812/28 "2018-07-30T18:44:45Z")
I’d be interested in a film studies definition. I’ve always thought of noir as the movies where nobody wins. If the good guy prevails at the end, it’s not noir. ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2018, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-film-noirs/818812/29 "2018-07-30T20:12:06Z")
It’s funny how the Hays Code actually made Noir darker. Not only were the protagonists doing evil, they weren’t allowed to get away with it. Lose-lose all around. ---
**Author:** ![MikeG](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikeg/32/4329_2.png) [@MikeG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeG)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2018, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-film-noirs/818812/30 "2018-07-30T20:48:40Z")
Would you consider The Public Eye film noir? I’d argue it’s Joe Pesci’s finest performance ever. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2018, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-film-noirs/818812/31 "2018-07-30T21:15:27Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Anybody can write for Wikipedia. So you tend to get the popular definitions rather than nuanced ones. > > If mood and lighting is the defining feature of film noir, is _Dracula_ a film noir? Is _A Nightmare on Elm Street_ a film noir? In a genre defined like this was, by foreign critics, responding to various signifiers, it began as nuanced. After that, and US critics got hip, films came into it and were roped in. There were neo and western noirs. All this interpretation is taking liberties with the original idea, which is just being expanded because it was a great idea, and insight. I have no problem with those being noir. But The Big Sleep is noir from the beginning of the definition. It wasn’t so obvious then. Remember that it is a genre being worked on with no aim at all to be one, and no idea that it would be one. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2018, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-film-noirs/818812/32 "2018-07-30T21:22:06Z")
BTW someone mentioned Brick, whch was great. High School Noir. Really cool idea. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2018, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-film-noirs/818812/33 "2018-07-30T21:26:16Z")
Is _Casablanca_ noir? While not a detective, Rick has the fell of one. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2018, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-film-noirs/818812/34 "2018-07-30T21:39:12Z")
> [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](#): > > Is _Casablanca_ noir? > > While not a detective, Rick has the fell of one. I don’t believe that the protagonist must be a detective. The guy in Out of the Past isn’t a detective-just a guy who dated the wrong girl. Re: Film Noirs, Films Noir, Films Noirs; it is French, so if we get it right, they will change it. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2018, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-film-noirs/818812/35 "2018-07-30T21:54:38Z")
_Blade Runner_ didn’t make that list??? 😕:eek: WTF? > [@Johnny\_Ecks](#): > > I recommend _Brick_. It is definitely a Noir, but it plays with the genre by putting the action in a High School. > [@ZonexandScout](#): > > Second! A somewhat novel approach to the genre, but very enjoyable. Aye; _Brick_ was very good and remains so thru multiple viewings. I can recommend [_The Man From Nowhere_](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1527788/) and [_Kiss Kiss Bang Bang_](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0373469/?ref_=nv_sr_1). Oh, and I don’t like to let a chance to recommend [_Bunraku_](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1181795/) go by, no matter how slim the rationale. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Dropo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ce7236/32.png) [@Dropo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dropo)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2018, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-film-noirs/818812/36 "2018-07-30T22:11:20Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I don’t believe that the protagonist must be a detective. The guy in Out of the Past isn’t a detective-just a guy who dated the wrong girl. Minor nitpick: The protagonist in _Out of the Past_ was a detective at the time he dated the wrong girl. Your first sentence is otherwise accurate. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2018, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-film-noirs/818812/37 "2018-07-30T22:21:43Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > _Blade Runner_ didn’t make that list??? 😕:eek: And _Dark City_. Is sci-fi just de facto excluded? ---
**Author:** ![carrps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carrps/32/2957_2.png) [@carrps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carrps)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2018, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-film-noirs/818812/38 "2018-07-30T22:39:35Z")
> [@ZonexandScout](#): > > Second! A somewhat novel approach to the genre, but very enjoyable. > > I just glanced through the list and I don’t recall seeing _ **Miller’s Crossing** _. Again, it’s a bit different (“noir lite”). _Miller’s Crossing_ is at the top of my fav Coen brothers films. I see more everytime I watch it. I also liked _Dead Again_ but I’m not sure if it counts as a noir. It’s not great, but it’s one that I can enjoy watching multiple times. I was interested to see that _The Woman in the Window_ was on the list. I only saw it for the first time a year or two ago, and, although it uses a trope that’s been overdone (and done badly), I absolutely didn’t mind it in this film. Very suspenseful. ---
**Author:** ![carrps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carrps/32/2957_2.png) [@carrps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carrps)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2018, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-film-noirs/818812/39 "2018-07-30T22:46:42Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > And _Dark City_. Is sci-fi just de facto excluded? I’d say those two are primarly sci-fi with noirish overtones. _Kiss Kiss Bang Bang_ is more a parody, but a really fun movie regardless. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2018, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-film-noirs/818812/40 "2018-07-30T22:58:24Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > Remember that it is a genre being worked on with no aim at all to be one, and no idea that it would be one. I think Hypno-Toad makes a good point. A lot of writers probably didn’t set out to tell a transgression=punishment narrative. But the Hollywood Production Code forced them into following that formula. You couldn’t have a guilty person going unpunished. And while I’m not sure it was an official rule, there was a strongly implied guideline that you couldn’t punish an innocent protagonist. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-film-noirs/818812.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-film-noirs/818812.md?page=3)