# Best film noirs **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 30, 2018, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-film-noirs/818812 "2018-07-30T13:43:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2018, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-film-noirs/818812/41 "2018-07-30T23:19:12Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > And _Dark City_. Is sci-fi just de facto excluded? Well _Dark City_ sucked IMO, so leaving it out makes sense to me. 😃 > [@carrps](#): > > I’d say those two are primarly sci-fi with noirish overtones. Then I’d say your definition of what makes a film _noir_ is too narrow: why does the setting matter at all? Can we have a film noir set in 1400s Japan? Then why not 2400 America? > [@carrps](#): > > _Kiss Kiss Bang Bang_ is more a parody, but a really fun movie regardless. I just realized that I forgot another great one, albeit a humorous homage: [_Dead Men Don’t Wear Plaid_](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0083798/). ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2018, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-film-noirs/818812/42 "2018-07-30T23:19:26Z")
I’ve said this before but I feel _The Friends of Eddie Coyle_ (1973) was the last genuine film noir. The idea that film noir was a genre and certain conventions existed was already being discussed among film theorists. But the people making movies weren’t paying too much attention to what the film theorists were saying. _The Friends of Eddie Coyle_ was one of the last, if not the last, movies that I feel was unintentionally film noir. The people who made that movie were just making a movie and they hadn’t set out to make a film noir. The movies made since then have been neo noir. Starting in the seventies, you had a new generation of filmmakers who had studied film history and knew film theory. These people were aware of what the conventions of the genre were and they were consciously making a film noir right from the start. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2018, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-film-noirs/818812/43 "2018-07-30T23:43:09Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Surely it is. Carmen murdered Sean Regan. That there are insane, creepy wealthy people is a pretty dark view. More so in the original novel; by adding extra Bogart-Bacall scenes to capitalize on their then-hot status as a couple, the film veered into other territory. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > In hard-boiled detective movies like _The Big Sleep_, _The Long Goodbye_, or _The Maltese Falcon_ the protagonist is following a code. It’s not easy to follow that code and the protagonist usually suffers for doing so. But generally, the protagonist survives and “wins” in the end (even if it’s often just a technical win and the protagonist isn’t happy with having won). > > In film noir movies like _Detour_, _Double Indemnity_, or _They Live by Night_ you have a protagonist who breaks a rule. The rest of the story is showing the consequences of that, usually with the protagonist ending up dead. Even in _D.O.A._ - which is often described as the story of an innocent victim trying to solve his own poisoning - the story starts with Frank Bigelow going to a seedy nightclub while he’s on a business trip. > > So both genres serve as morality tales but they’re telling two different stories. Thanks for stating this so well, this is the dichotomy I was trying to put my finger on. I think Frank Bigelow going into the seedy nightclub is symptomatic of his bigger mistake, which is the emotional distance he is trying to keep between himself and his loving secretary. He wants to have the security of that relationship without formalizing it, so that he might mess around outside without actually cheating. He’s a fundamentally decent guy who makes the mistake of not knowing what was good for him. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2018, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-film-noirs/818812/44 "2018-07-30T23:46:02Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Well _Dark City_ sucked IMO, so leaving it out makes sense to me. 😃 Tastes obviously differ, but it rates 7.7 on IMDB, putting it within the range of listed films (not sure if it earns **septimus** ’s bonus points or not). It’s tagged as “neo noir”, FWIW. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2018, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-film-noirs/818812/45 "2018-07-31T00:45:02Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I think Hypno-Toad makes a good point. A lot of writers probably didn’t set out to tell a transgression=punishment narrative. But the Hollywood Production Code forced them into following that formula. You couldn’t have a guilty person going unpunished. And while I’m not sure it was an official rule, there was a strongly implied guideline that you couldn’t punish an innocent protagonist. To me noir didn’t need a particular outcome. It was more style and attitude. Endings of movies are always being manipulated. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2018, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-film-noirs/818812/46 "2018-07-31T00:47:56Z")
> [@Dropo](#): > > Minor nitpick: The protagonist in _Out of the Past_ was a detective at the time he dated the wrong girl. Your first sentence is otherwise accurate. Mildred Pierce is about regular (?) people. DOA with Edmond Obrien is also called noir. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2018, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-film-noirs/818812/47 "2018-07-31T21:44:04Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > To me noir didn’t need a particular outcome. It was more style and attitude. Endings of movies are always being manipulated. I disagree. I think the narrative of a movie is a lot more important than its lighting. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-film-noirs/818812/48 "2018-08-01T01:57:02Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I disagree. I think the narrative of a movie is a lot more important than its lighting. Are you talking about the ending or the plot? The narrative, is reflective of the tone and style of noir. But the ending of the plot may or may not conform. Endings are sometimes influenced by suits and others. I don’t think it was ever definitive of noir, anyway. > **[Film noir](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Film_noir)** > > Film noir (/nwɑːr/; .mw-parser-output .IPA-label-small{font-size:85%}.mw-parser-output .references .IPA-label-small,.mw-parser-output .infobox .IPA-label-small,.mw-parser-output .navbox .IPA-label-small{font-size:100%}French: \[film nwaʁ\]) is a cinematic term used primarily to describe stylized Hollywood crime dramas, particularly those that emphasize cynical attitudes and motivations. The 1940s and 1950s are generally regarded as the "classic period" of American film noir. Film noir of this era i... ---
**Author:** ![Sefton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@Sefton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sefton)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-film-noirs/818812/49 "2018-08-01T04:33:27Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I disagree. I think the narrative of a movie is a lot more important than its lighting. Film noir has more to do with characters than plot. There are no traditional “good guys.” Everyone has an angle and most people are liars. Good intentions are only permitted for those who are broken inside or about to face a tragic end. This is why I disliked _Blade Runner 2049_. It was fine as a sci-fi movie, but lousy as film noir. Rick Blaine is a great noir character, but there are too many “good” characters in _Casablanca_ for the movie to be considered noir. And they get a happy ending! ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-film-noirs/818812/50 "2018-08-01T04:36:09Z")
_The Ice Harvest_ was pretty good, for a neo-noir. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-film-noirs/818812/51 "2018-08-01T14:52:50Z")
> [@Sefton](#): > > Rick Blaine is a great noir character, but there are too many “good” characters in _Casablanca_ for the movie to be considered noir. And they get a happy ending! An ending where Bogart loses the girl is not happy. ---
**Author:** ![Sefton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@Sefton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sefton)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-film-noirs/818812/52 "2018-08-01T14:57:30Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > An ending where Bogart loses the girl is not happy. Ha. I didn’t mean that Bogart’s character got a happy ending. I meant that the “good” (better word: “pure”) characters, Victor Laszlo and Ilsa Lund, got happy endings. In a film noir, Rick would have killed Victor Laszlo and flown off with Ilsa Lund. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ecks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bcef8e/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ecks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ecks)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-film-noirs/818812/53 "2018-08-01T15:37:57Z")
I suppose the question is, what is a Noir? Here is my list, off the top of my head and without reference to outside sources. Note that there are exceptions to all of these. 1. Black and white, usually dark with sharp contrasts in lighting- 2. A protagonist who is morally grey. 3. The protagonist is relatively powerless. A low-rent private detective or an unlucky everyman. 4. There is a crime that causes the action, with the protagonist caught up in the results. Sometimes he committed the crime, sometimes he’s trying to solve the crime, sometimes he’s been framed for the crime. 5. The protagonist gets beaten up, usually more than once. 6. A dangerous woman figures into the plot. [Hark, a vagrant: 362](http://www.harkavagrant.com/index.php?id=362) 7. The ending is unhappy, or at best ambiguous. The protagonist may be able to succeed, but at a cost. Whatever he accomplished will be incomplete and temporary. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-film-noirs/818812/54 "2018-08-01T15:47:20Z")
Sounds like anything written by Raymond Chandler. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-film-noirs/818812/55 "2018-08-01T15:54:39Z")
> [@Sefton](#): > > Ha. I didn’t mean that Bogart’s character got a happy ending. I meant that the “good” (better word: “pure”) characters, Victor Laszlo and Ilsa Lund, got happy endings. In a film noir, Rick would have killed Victor Laszlo and flown off with Ilsa Lund. Yeah I think Casablanca seems to have a very strong moral center. In fact it’s kind of iconic, with a soliloquy and everything. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ecks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bcef8e/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ecks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ecks)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-film-noirs/818812/56 "2018-08-01T16:41:53Z")
Casablanca is an edge case, using the conventions of Noir without the pessimistic spirit. ---
**Author:** ![Jeff\_Lichtman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jeff_lichtman/32/1531_2.png) [@Jeff\_Lichtman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jeff_Lichtman)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-film-noirs/818812/57 "2018-08-01T17:12:20Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > An ending where Bogart loses the girl is not happy. It was happy in the sense that the forces of good triumphed over the forces of evil. After all, the problems of three people don’t amount to a hill of beans in this crazy world. One reason that Casablanca isn’t a noir movie is that Rick redeems himself in the end. In a true noir, he wouldn’t have been able to set things right; his fate would have been sealed by his own cynicism. He might have realized how foolish he’d been, but it would have been too late. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-film-noirs/818812/58 "2018-08-01T17:59:46Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ecks](#): > > Casablanca is an edge case, using the conventions of Noir without the pessimistic spirit. What noir conventions? It’s a war film, (During the axis powers threat no less, and just before we got in). It meant that the movie was produced as the opposite, at least to me, for civic and patriotic reasons. Aren’t the last words spoken “…a beautiful friendship…”? I think that it’s possible that film producers would not associate real noir elements with a foreign setting, especially in wartime. Back then it was seen to be about the conventions of the “crime” movie. Casablanca is one of the most famous romances in movie history. It wasn’t seen as cynical. From Wiki: “Although an initial release date was anticipated for early 1943,[89] the film premiered at the Hollywood Theater in New York City on November 26, 1942, to coincide with the Allied invasion of North Africa and the capture of Casablanca.[7][90] It went into general release on January 23, 1943, to take advantage of the Casablanca Conference, a high-level meeting in the city between British Prime Minister Winston Churchill and American President Franklin D. Roosevelt. The Office of War Information prevented screening of the film to troops in North Africa, believing it would cause resentment among Vichy supporters in the region.[91]” ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ecks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bcef8e/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ecks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ecks)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-film-noirs/818812/59 "2018-08-01T18:15:49Z")
What noir conventions? Cynical protagonist surrounded by corruption and greed, gets caught up in a murder and squeezed by corrupt cops and manipulated by a mysterious woman from his past… Yeah, it’s a wartime romance. But it has a noir elements. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-film-noirs/818812/60 "2018-08-01T20:16:18Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ecks](#): > > What noir conventions? Cynical protagonist surrounded by corruption and greed, gets caught up in a murder and squeezed by corrupt cops and manipulated by a mysterious woman from his past… > Yeah, it’s a wartime romance. But it has a noir elements. Yeah, I see some of that. But the mood was always good natured and sentimental somehow, and Bogie has been in other noirs. In wartime USA romance was the mandate. Doesn’t the speech at the end put the blanc on it? I think in noir the sentiment is a prop coming in strategically just before the actual point, which was usually bleak and existential. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-film-noirs/818812.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-film-noirs/818812.md?page=4)